acceptable tools

[martin.pearson]

Not looking to start an arguement but just wondered about peoples feelings about what is & what isn't acceptable when it comes to woodworking tools, I had origianlly started typing this on dalboys post about the blue textured bowl after he had mentioned that cnc wasn't woodworking but then realised it might take away from his post on that piece.

Everyone has their own opinion on tools & I don't argue with them about it, just because my opinion differs from someone elses it doesn't mean I am right. To me the CNC machine is just another tool that allows me to work with wood. I can still make a pair of something & make them slightly different by altering the original pattern slightly, regardless of what machine is used you still have to be able to finish properly which is where many people seem to fall down (myself included but I am getting better).
Funny enough I didn't buy a cnc machine to be able to do woodwork, I work as a signmaker & the machine was to cut sign trays, letters for shop fronts from acrylic & aluminium & acrylic display stands etc.
It wasn't until after I got it I discovered all the other really great things it could do which then rekindled my interest in woodworking which I hadn't really done since leaving school. That then led me down a slightly different path & I have now added quite a bit of equipment which I would never have bought if I had not discovered all the things I were able to create from wood. Included in that list is a woodworking lathe which I am now attempting to learn how to use.
The machine has allowed me to make many things for my kids & Grand kids that they love but would probably never have got if I had used other methods simply because of the time it takes to develop the required skills to work by hand. With the amount of time I have available I would probably still be learning the basics lol

Like I said at the top I am not looking for an arguement with anyone & would like to think that this forum is friendly enough that it wouldn't happen anyway. I just think it is interesting to learn peoples views & their reasons for their way of thinking.

 

[jackjohnsonuk]

And the can of worms is open!

I can see both sides of the discussion and don't really fall firmly on one side or the other.

My view is just it's a different skill set - I'm fairly sure that if they had CNC's through the ages, craftsmen would have used them, exactly the same as nearly all turning is now done on a mechanically powered lathe, and very few people use pole lathes any more.

I work for a large construction company and spend a chunk of my time in CAD, I don't enjoy it, in the same way, I do turning on a lathe and as such, it isn't my hobby.

On the contrary, though I can't quite bring myself to call them woodworkers, to me they are closer to machine operators more than woodworkers, but then the same argument could be made for everyone who runs a table saw and a domino as a means to make furniture. Myself, I like making furniture by hand, it reminds me of how my grandfather made it for a number of years, and the majority of my tools are his that I've restored, but then this is only a hobby for me, and not an income so I view speed differently. That doesn't make me any more, or less, of a woodworker than anyone else, at the end of the day the finished article is all the client see's, not the means of manufacture.

People can call themselves whatever they want if it bothers you then take a deep breath. Just like life, there's a number of routes in anything to get to the same point, take the one you enjoy.

Just one mans humble opinion

 

[martin.pearson]

Maybe its just me but I don't see it as a can of worms, people have different opinions & to me that is fine, be a very boring existance if we all felt & thought alike & like you I can see the points on both sides. If I didn't enjoy it then I wouldn't be doing it, different skill set as you pointed out. It doesn't bother me in the slightest, life is far to short for that sort of thing. Even if I use the CNC for something I still have to sand & finish the project & most of the time it is a combination of CNC work & other methods as some things are just done quicker with other tools lol

There is a guy on the vectric forum who makes furniture, he is a cabinet maker so has some woodworking skills, he uses the cnc to do a lot of the prelimanary cutting that he used to do on a bandsaw, why because it is quicker & he can be getting on with something else while the CNC is cutting the parts out. Its a business for him & he has said that the CNC has enabled him to save time & keep doing what he loves

 

[Gadget-UK]

I use all sorts of tools for all sorts of jobs, NOT necessarily what that tool was made for BUT if it gets the job done and the item made

Live and let live, loads of tools I would like but don't actually need as I have workarounds with other tools that does the job, a CNC is a tool if it does the job then so be it.
Everyone to there own and good luck is all can say :wink:

 

[Dibbs]

There's nothing wrong with CNC but it's not for me at the moment. I'm a software developer and I really don't want to sit in front of a computer for fun as well as work. That will probably change in a couple of years when I retire.

I'm sure there are some die-hard hand tool enthusiasts who would insist that using a power carver isn't real woodwork. Each to their own.

 

[21William]

Yes I’ve had this discussion before with metalworking. If anything has been produced on a CNC machine then it’s a firm No from me, you haven’t made it. You are of course entitled to say you’ve Designed it, if in fact that’s the case. It’s now entirely possible to download a design and get a machine to produce it. In this case you’ve just turned the power switch on and loaded the material.

 

[Dalboy]

For me CNC is for the production line and not for hand crafted. I admire those that are able to program those things and see it as a skill in its own right. But woodworking is to me working with the wood and being in contact with it while producing something all be it not to perfection.
By using a CNC you really loose contact with the material except picking it up and placing it on a machine.
Those that use CNC will probably disagree. besides that what do you do with yourself while waiting for the machine do it own thing unless it goes wrong

 

[Phil Dart]

Interesting discussion.

For myself, I think that a lot of my opinion is be coloured by whether or not at the end of the process, I would want to be able to say the finished article is handmade or not. I completely agree that a CNC machine is a tool, and none better for getting the job done quickly, efficiently and repeatably. I don't own one but if I had a need to produce any kind of item along those lines, I probably wouldn't hesitate to buy one if I could afford it.

But if I wanted to produce a handmade article, then for me, a CNC has no place. I tend to regard a CNC as a commercial tool for production line methods, and although I'm very happy to embrace powered machinery and labour saving devices in the workshop, handmade for me has to involve more use of hands than programming.

I suppose what I'm saying is that yes, I agree a CNC is a bonefide woodworking tool, but I feel that what comes off it is machine made, not handmade.

 

[martin.pearson]

Those that use CNC will probably disagree. besides that what do you do with yourself while waiting for the machine do it own thing unless it goes wrong

I use a CNC & I wouldn't completely disagree with you, yes there is probably something lost in the process as your personal contact with the wood or whatever material is reduced but not completely missing, I still have to sand & finish the piece so there is a degree of hands on. To answer your second question, yesterday while the CNC was running I was turning some pens on the lathe, few days before that I was planing & thicknessing some boards. Pretty much anything else in the workshop that needs to be done really.
Its funny that Handmade items have been mentioned & I have read articles about what is handmade & what is not, across lots of different industries so this isn't something that is just related to woodworking lol, I guess I am one of those who still looks on things as handmade even if the cnc has been used for part of that process, not sure if that is wrong or not. I guess the waters are pretty muddy surrounding things like that for me because people who advertise things as hand carved when I can clearly see its been produced on a machine do annoy me so why is it ok for me to say something is hand made ??
Might have to rethink how I word things because I don't have a problem telling people that I have used a cnc machine. In fact if you look at my page when people have said that something was great I have quite often said that I couldn't really take to much credit as the machine did most of the work.

 

[21William]

There is a Ply Art sculpture I’ve seen that I like and I’d love to make my own version but I’m a bit nervous of wasting material attempting it by hand. I’m pretty sure the one I’ve seen says it was done by CNC so there is definitely a place for it. Seeing the object on screen before committing it to production is definitely a bonus.

 

[Gadget-UK]

Interesting discussion.

For myself, I think that a lot of my opinion is be coloured by whether or not at the end of the process, I would want to be able to say the finished article is handmade or not. I completely agree that a CNC machine is a tool, and none better for getting the job done quickly, efficiently and repeatably. I don't own one but if I had a need to produce any kind of item along those lines, I probably wouldn't hesitate to buy one if I could afford it.

But if I wanted to produce a handmade article, then for me, a CNC has no place. I tend to regard a CNC as a commercial tool for production line methods, and although I'm very happy to embrace powered machinery and labour saving devices in the workshop, handmade for me has to involve more use of hands than programming.

I suppose what I'm saying is that yes, I agree a CNC is a bonefide woodworking tool, but I feel that what comes off it is machine made, not handmade.

What a great reply Phil.

 

[Lons]

Hmmm...

I'm in the same camp as Derek and Phil and I can see a use for a CNC and probably would use one but only if I wanted or needed to produce items in quantity, quickly, accurately and identical or very similar and so I definitely see that as more of a production tool than one used for hobby purpose.

Absolutely nothing wrong with that and I have no issues with anyone who wants to do so whatever their reasons but to my old fashioned mind a bit of sanding and finishing on a 95% completed object isn't "proper" woodworking.

Given enough available time there is huge satisfaction to be gained in making something solely with hand tools, but then time is in short supply."Handmade" is an often misused description as few people actually do that and there is usually a machine in there somewhere even if just a chainsaw to convert a log but IMO if the vast majority is by using hand tools then that's an acceptable description. Everything we use is a tool of sorts whether it be abrasive sheet, the toothpick I use to apply glue or the paper / cloth to apply the finish.


Examples of a lathe being powered by motor instead of muscle power isn't similar in any way imho as all that's doing is moving the material, the artistry is the imagination of the turner and his skill or lack of using the tools.
I own a tablesaw, bandsaw, planer thicknesser, pillar drill and spindle moulder and all but the moulder are purely for the initial purpose to dimension the materials whereas a CNC produces an almost finished product and the only creative part is in the program writing.

Yes the machines are there to save time but handmade to me means that the end product is virtually unique as it takes great skill to repeatedly produce exact replicas and there will always be slight differences where with a CNC it's easy once programmed and you just leave it to get on with the process.

I have the same view when it comes to duplicate carving machines as all they do is produce copies but a power carver or dremel is just a rotary tool and the guy using it still has to control it or produce a pile of sawdust.

Like you I wouldn't want to fuel an argument, we're all different and entitled to use any method we wish for the enjoyment of our hobbies and there's no right or wrong just differing views, this being mine.
cheers

EDIT:

I find watching a CNC almost hypnotic and fascination, lasers are similar.

 

[martin.pearson]

There is a Ply Art sculpture I’ve seen that I like and I’d love to make my own version but I’m a bit nervous of wasting material attempting it by hand. I’m pretty sure the one I’ve seen says it was done by CNC so there is definitely a place for it. Seeing the object on screen before committing it to production is definitely a bonus.

I don't know about sculpture but there are a few cnc ply chairs I have seen, there is still quite a bit of hands on work with some I have seen as the CNC only cut the parts to a rough size for them, all the bits still had to be glued up & then the process of sanding & finishing was all done by hand. It certainly helps me a lot being able to see on screen what I have done before any wood is cut, the toolpath previews are pretty accurate so they have saved me from producing a pile of scrap on a few occassions lol
It also helps being able to show the customer what their finished piece will look like.
I have my own business working as a signmaker but with the health problems that I have I can now only work part time which makes it very difficult for some of the work I do. I am hoping to be able to turn the woodworking that I do into more of a business & make most things to order, that would work much better for me personally.

Its funny how quantity has been mentioned a few times, yes they can produce many copies of the same thing but a lot of the things that I have made have been one offs, would I make another one? Well yes I guess I would if someone asked but it wasn't my intention when I started out with the project. If I didn't own the machine I doubt I would be doing any woodworking of any description now which to me would be a sad loss.

 

[Penpal]

My latest purchase is coming next week. It is a 4 wheel independant suspension Mobility Scooter that comes apart easily and fits in the car or wagon. 24 volt electric motor,my saving grace for purpose. Horses for courses.

My grandfather was born in 1879, father 1906. Just imagine the conversations we had about all things great and glorious that were invented and became common use and acccepted.

Our weekly pen of the week,how can we fairly judge from our viewing and appreciation the vast differences in sourcing and making using whatever method to achieve.

Hopefully we can accept the miracles performed each and every day in hospitals ,be grateful and courteous to everyone,we all have obsessions,driven by different motives. Progress and the ability to adapt.

Enjoy your own approach to everything,it is exciting and character building.

Be it a Christian approach or atheist, enjoy the Christmas Season and SEASONS GREETINGS TO ALL WOODWORKERS.

Peter.

 

[yorkshireman]

This is a great thread. I’m now retired and tinker about in my garage making things purely out of wood. I’m struggling with arthritis which is slowly getting worse and limits the time I can spend on my feet. To help me continue with my hobby I’ve bought a table saw, band saw, planer thicknesser, drum sander, disc sander, router table, scroll saw, pillar drill plus other smaller power tools. Without these to help I would be stuck as I can’t use hand tools like I used to. I was at Harrogate with Jim a few weeks ago and we were watching one of these concert machines being demonstrated. They are amazing and if I had room left in the garage one of these would have pride of place. Would what I make with it be handmade, I would possibly say not, then again I could not go back to hand planing and hand saws.

 

[martin.pearson]

Peter interesting that you should mention pen of the week because I don't vote on it, the reason is very simple. I know next to nothing about pen making so I would be voting purely on what I find atractive & not on the skill involved in the process of making the pen which to me wouldn't be a fair way to judge.

I do still use a combination of hand tools & power tools, some jobs are done quicker on the router table than by the CNC, the pillar drill is often quicker than using the CNC, most of the wood I buy is just kiln dried slices, I can get the sawmill to finish them into boards for a price but then I loose all the small bits that I can use for things like pens lol. I normally thickness it before putting on the CNC because its quicker.
I use a hand saw on a fairly regular basis for 2 reasons, firstly if is often quicker than using a power saw if there isn't much to do & secondly because I like to keep my hand in.

 

[Lons]

It would be interesting to see what you make Martin, I make thinks for our 5 year old granddaughter and I think I get more pleasure out of it than her.

 

[Lons]

I was at Harrogate with Jim a few weeks ago and we were watching one of these concert machines being demonstrated.

I looked everywhere for you and Jim on the Saturday Keith as Neil said you were around toe show. How on earth I couldn't find you 2 reprobates still puzzles me.

keep well marra and give Jim my best when you next speak to him.
Couldn't find Bill Mooney either which was strange as usually I fall over him half a dozen times. Maybe it's time I visited Specsavers.

 

[yorkshireman]

I looked everywhere for you and Jim on the Saturday Keith as Neil said you were around toe show. How on earth I couldn't find you 2 reprobates still puzzles me.

keep well marra and give Jim my best when you next speak to him.
Couldn't find Bill Mooney either which was strange as usually I fall over him half a dozen times. Maybe it's time I visited Specsavers.

Thanks for that Bob mate. I’ll be talking to Jim in a couple of weeks and I’ll pass on your regards.

 

[wm460]

Would love to convert my mill to CNC.