Help needed with finishing problems!

[busby42]

Hi all,

This is a long post, I apologise, but I am sure I will get some help on a completely new (for me) set of problems regarding finishing! In broad terms this is about my work piece not holding its finish or the finish simply ‘disappearing’…

I am making a TM Alpha fountain using some lovely pink ivory wood I bought, a present for my niece’s birthday. I have turned the blanks down to bushings, sanded to 2000 grit (dry), applied Cellulose Sanding Sealer, de-nibbed using 1000 grit and rubbed down with tack cloth ready for finishing. This is the point I got back to at the end of each (!) attempt described below.


Attempt 1: Melamine spray lacquer
Applied around 7 coats (I do tend to go OTT with my finishes), de-nibbed using 1000 grit each two/three coats along the way and rubbed down with tack cloth before continuing. Looked beautiful! Then after final coat used micro mesh, wet, to 12000. However, when finished I saw the lacquer coating had come off leaving some patches of thin lacquer remaining.
I put this down to working in the cold and maybe too much pressure in sanding or maybe water softening the lacquer before it had properly hardened…

Attempt 2: CA finish
Cut back to bare wood, cellulose sanding sanding, de-nib and tack cloth. Applied several coats of medium CA, de-nibbed with 1000-1500 grit then added more coats. After about 10-12 coats I used micro mesh to cut back then brought the mandrel with blanks into the house where it is warmer. As it dried I realised the CA finish appeared to have been sanded/scratched off but with a different pattern to how the melamine had rubbed off!

Attempt 3: CA finish
As before, back to my starting point. This time used thin CA and allowed more drying time between coats, bringing the mandrel and blanks into the house between each few coats to dry in a warmer place. All looked fine….
Left for a few hours outside while I was out and about, in the evening added several more coats of thin CA and brought into the house while still wet with CA. Left it in a warm place for over an hour. When I went back to pick it up nearly ALL the finish had disappeared even what seemed hard and set from earlier in the day! Wood looked damp and slightly rough as if I’d rubbed unfinished wood with water but almost NO finish except for some light streaks (see first photo if it helps).


Now, I’m flummoxed. What could cause my problems and what is it I am doing wrong? I have used both types of finish on earlier pens ‘successfully’.
- Wood absorbing the finishes? Can that even happen?
- Over-rubbing with tack cloth thinning out the finish making it easier to scrape off? Doesn’t seem to explain my third experience though
- Paper towel absorbing CA more than it is leaving on the blank?
- Using CA on top of a sanding sealer?
- Heat causing CA to evaporate (doesn’t seem right to me though)
- CA glue gone off? But not had it that long, and used two different brands and thicknesses


Put some more CA on last night but without cutting back to bare wood (second photo on the lathe) looked OK this morning and some more this morning, but I’m not happy with the finish so will probably need to take it back to the beginning…
Any thoughts? Can anyone help please?!

Thanks all
Sam

View attachment 31371

View attachment 31372

 

[Buckeye]

I put on at least 20 coats of thin CA and use Accelerator between coats and never de-nib. I either wet MM though all the grades or just the first two grades and then buffing mops. Your first photo looks as though you have cut back to far.

I have no idea about melamine, but I think Phil advocates using it, he should be back soon so he may be able to help with that.

Peter

 

[busby42]

I put on at least 20 coats of thin CA and use Accelerator between coats and never de-nib. I either wet MM though all the grades or just the first two grades and then buffing mops. Your first photo looks as though you have cut back to far.

I have no idea about melamine, but I think Phil advocates using it, he should be back soon so he may be able to help with that.

Peter

Hi Peter,

Thank you, I'll try that on this next attempt, I picked up some more CA and accelerator this morning to give it a go.

However, the thing with the first picture is that this is what happened after applying several coats of CA and no sanding whatsoever, I applyed several coats of CA and simply put the whole mandrel with the blanks in a warm place to dry. The picture shows what I found when I went to pick up from where I left off!

What could have happened to the CA I applied and then left...

Regards
Sam

 

[Penpal]

I mostly use but one to three coats of CA, right now its warm for us but so much rain after years of very little. Still no probs like yours. Some timbers Pink Ivory in particular are not known for difficult finishing. Where in the UK are you Sam, if you choose anonmity your harder to help. Like home schooling or learning by correspondence. I fear the use of sticky tape hither and yon in the form of masking tape etc another recipe for failure.

Peter.

 

[busby42]

I mostly use but one to three coats of CA, right now its warm for us but so much rain after years of very little. Still no probs like yours. Some timbers Pink Ivory in particular are not known for difficult finishing. Where in the UK are you Sam, if you choose anonmity your harder to help. Like home schooling or learning by correspondence. I fear the use of sticky tape hither and yon in the form of masking tape etc another recipe for failure.

Peter.

Hi Peter,

I'm in Rugby, UK have added to my profile now!

The masking tape was originally put on as I thought about protecting the bushing (never done it before, not sure why I did this time) newbie/rookie mistake, sorry!

I will try again this evening with fewer lighter coats of CA and go easy on the micro meshes, I have seen some (including one woodworker I spoke to) who seem to quote upwards of 10 and on one set of on-line instructions 20 coats.

Still trying to understand where a full coat of untouched CA went on my material on my last attempt!

Regards
Sam

 

[Dalboy]

With the lacquer after the last coat I would leave the blanks for a few days to harden correctly then give it the last rub down. Even if the finish feels dry underneath can still be soft

 

[Buckeye]

Hi Peter,

Thank you, I'll try that on this next attempt, I picked up some more CA and accelerator this morning to give it a go.

However, the thing with the first picture is that this is what happened after applying several coats of CA and no sanding whatsoever, I applyed several coats of CA and simply put the whole mandrel with the blanks in a warm place to dry. The picture shows what I found when I went to pick up from where I left off!

What could have happened to the CA I applied and then left...

Regards
Sam

If the wood was particularly porous then it would have soaked in as it does on well spalted wood, just keep adding more until it no longer soaks in.

Peter

 

[Phil Dart]

Visually, there is not a great deal to distinguish between heartwood and sapwood on pink ivory, however the sapwood is not particularly suitable for high gloss or semi gloss finishing because it's too porous. The heartwood is excellent, and often doesn't really even need an applied chemical finish, but I suspect that your problem is you have a piece of sapwood there. As Peter says, the only way forward really is to keep applying sealer until it won't soak in any more. I would dilute it, maybe 2 parts sealer to one part thinners and keep applying it.

Just a couple of observations about your processes as you've described them...

There is no point in sanding to 2000 if you are going to cut back to 1000. You may as well save your time, effort and abrasives and just sand to 1000. Either that or cut back to 2000 or finer.

You cannot get an even application on melamine from a spray can in my experience - not on something as small as a pen. on a cupboard door, maybe, but not on a pen. Much better off using it from a tin and applying with a tissue, which then would actually not need to be cut back at all if you're doing it correctly.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Bill Mooney]

I agree with Phil on the sanding. No point in sanding to 2000 grit then denibbing at 1000 grit. Do as Phil says & use 2000 grit or higher to denib your sanding sealer. Take notice of the ca guys & you should solve your problem.

 

[silver]

In agree with all previously comments.

A few of my questions and observations..

No one on here puts CA on in the same way, what we have developed is our own way. We all do something a little different each and every one of us do it the right way. But remember, my way IS the right way...

Some use boiled Linseed oil, some only use sanding sealer, some don't use anything but straight CA.. Some use thin while others use medium.. .

Some of the sensible ones amongst us don't use CA, they may use acrylic lacquer, varnish or even God forbid friction polish..

So my observation is you are not doing something right, no sh*t Sherlock I hear you say..

So the thinner the CA the more it absorbs, until it's has taken all it can and take no more. so keep building it up without sanding back until you can see a good coating and you will see a "shine" to the material. That is when you start to cut back and smooth off if needed. I never use anything below 2000 for this

What thickness of CA are you using? I would recommend thin, I use the pound land Tommy stuff for finishing. But I don't use it for glueing the tubes in..I use either medium or thick if using CA for tubes.

Phil has commented about sap wood taking more CA to soak in, yes that is correct. But remember it's not the woods fault. You just need to understand that all words absorb at different rates.

it doesn't matter how many coats you put on before you cut it back, so the more the merrier.. the only area I would say you are "hampering" your finish is with the cutting back with 1000.

One thought is the weather, TBH CA needs air moisture to cure, however cold weather does slow down the curing process so temps above 5 degrees centigrade will help. If you take it in/out of the shed in to the house may form clouding as it doesn't like temp changes while during.

That's my four penorth. I'm sure Les will come in with his "Dipping method" soon. I am still getting to grips with it and once I have perfected it I'm sure it will be as good as CA, albeit much slower to finish the pens.

if you have got to the bottom of this dribble you will know that what I am talking about is pure bo**ocks and womder WTF he is on about..

General rules,

Only use thin CA
Put as many coats on as possible before cutting back or smoothing off.
Always cut back with the next grade paper from you finished off with last time you cut back.
(If you sanded off with 1000 prior to putting CA on then start with the next one up to cut back)
Continue up untill you get the finish you desire..

And don't forget, never use CA as finish..

 

[Penpal]

Eamonn I only use medium CA especially because it applies smoother for me. A revelation for me has been finding the prince of sanding material. For me that is Abranet never found it around here. Using to a maximum only 500 grit. I like the cloth back, wish I had used it so many years ago.I think two highly respected masters in Les from Canada and David from Timberbits only go down to 400 grit. Speaking for David busy as he is he is the supplier of pens to a major class establishment by preference of the gallery owner.

Peter.

 

[silver]

Eamonn I only use medium CA especially because it applies smoother for me?
Peter.

As I said Peter.

No one on here puts CA on in the same way, what we have developed is our own way. We all do something a little different each and every one of us.

 

[EStreet]

What brand of sanding sealer and CA are you using. As to where it went that's fairly simple to explain.

 

[wm460]

In agree with all previously comments.

A few of my questions and observations..

No one on here puts CA on in the same way, what we have developed is our own way. We all do something a little different each and every one of us do it the right way. But remember, my way IS the right way...

Some use boiled Linseed oil, some only use sanding sealer, some don't use anything but straight CA.. Some use thin while others use medium.. .

Some of the sensible ones amongst us don't use CA, they may use acrylic lacquer, varnish or even God forbid friction polish..

So my observation is you are not doing something right, no sh*t Sherlock I hear you say..

So the thinner the CA the more it absorbs, until it's has taken all it can and take no more. so keep building it up without sanding back until you can see a good coating and you will see a "shine" to the material. That is when you start to cut back and smooth off if needed. I never use anything below 2000 for this

What thickness of CA are you using? I would recommend thin, I use the pound land Tommy stuff for finishing. But I don't use it for glueing the tubes in..I use either medium or thick if using CA for tubes.

Phil has commented about sap wood taking more CA to soak in, yes that is correct. But remember it's not the woods fault. You just need to understand that all words absorb at different rates.

it doesn't matter how many coats you put on before you cut it back, so the more the merrier.. the only area I would say you are "hampering" your finish is with the cutting back with 1000.

One thought is the weather, TBH CA needs air moisture to cure, however cold weather does slow down the curing process so temps above 5 degrees centigrade will help. If you take it in/out of the shed in to the house may form clouding as it doesn't like temp changes while during.

That's my four penorth. I'm sure Les will come in with his "Dipping method" soon. I am still getting to grips with it and once I have perfected it I'm sure it will be as good as CA, albeit much slower to finish the pens.

if you have got to the bottom of this dribble you will know that what I am talking about is pure bo**ocks and womder WTF he is on about..

General rules,

Only use thin CA
Put as many coats on as possible before cutting back or smoothing off.
Always cut back with the next grade paper from you finished off with last time you cut back.
(If you sanded off with 1000 prior to putting CA on then start with the next one up to cut back)
Continue up untill you get the finish you desire..

And don't forget, never use CA as finish..

Well put Eamonn.

 

[busby42]

Hi all,

Great advice as always, I realised quite quickly that everyone has a different way of doing things! But I now understand what is happening and proving the point I applied some more CA yesterday and all has been absorbed by the wood ...so I will keep at it a bit longer!

Take on board the advice on cutting back, I have a habit of going further than I really need to! Typically I cut back at 1000 grit because my CA hasn't gone on as smoothly as all the youtube videos seem to show! I think because I am overworking the CA rather than just letting it dry and harden Gotta just stop over engineering methinks.

Glad to have found you all here and appreciative for the advice.

Sam

 

[Penpal]

I run CA on at a reasonable speed mate and use undercut bushes to help prevent carryover.

Peter.