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No doubt some others will come along with a great explanation soon..
But this is my knowledge of it.. which isn't as much as it could or should be.
Historically the first comercial pen kits came on the market from Taiwan, they have always had better quality control and some of the respected manufacturers are based there. Having said that they are faced with cutting costs due to cheap Chinese copies.
China has always been world renown for being the "copy cats" and are ingenious in their ability to do that, however quality hasn't been on their agenda only bulk manufacture and stack em high..
However, they are now realising that people are seeing that and some manufacturers are stepping up and taking quality control to a new level.
I have seen that in a few areas, but they lack structure as I have seen myself when dealing with them for the designs and quality of box clasps.
You can't tell them apart from looking at them as often it's down to the plating, you just have to get to know your supplier and little things like the way the kit is packaged when you get it at home. That in itself gives a lot away.
Have you had a look on the Dayacom website? They were at one point the standard to achieve and the most copied kits throughout. Many have leapt above the, in designs and kits.
Don't know what they are like now as not used them for around 3 years but they did have the best customer service that I had dealt with.
But this is my knowledge of it.. which isn't as much as it could or should be.
Historically the first comercial pen kits came on the market from Taiwan, they have always had better quality control and some of the respected manufacturers are based there. Having said that they are faced with cutting costs due to cheap Chinese copies.
China has always been world renown for being the "copy cats" and are ingenious in their ability to do that, however quality hasn't been on their agenda only bulk manufacture and stack em high..
However, they are now realising that people are seeing that and some manufacturers are stepping up and taking quality control to a new level.
I have seen that in a few areas, but they lack structure as I have seen myself when dealing with them for the designs and quality of box clasps.
You can't tell them apart from looking at them as often it's down to the plating, you just have to get to know your supplier and little things like the way the kit is packaged when you get it at home. That in itself gives a lot away.
Have you had a look on the Dayacom website? They were at one point the standard to achieve and the most copied kits throughout. Many have leapt above the, in designs and kits.
Don't know what they are like now as not used them for around 3 years but they did have the best customer service that I had dealt with.
Penpal
Grand Master
THe Taiwon Chinese people and the mainland Chinese people are divided by leadership and constitutions. There are many Chinese firms who have businesses in both places.
A friend of mine makes Gyrocopters in Mainland China, Assembles them in his workshop at his home next to Canberra. He frequents his manufacturing business many months of the year. He has explained the complexities of Manufacture to me they are exhaustive.
Taiwan has a separate set of policies and complexities.
All of this means you buy directly or indirectly in American Dollars from China. Some businesses such as Phils make their own arrangements direct with Taiwon that commit them to buy minimum quantities in American Dollars.Then the chain of supply makes these kits unique to him in the UK, he Phil has an agent in the US.
Phil directs the manufacture of Shakespeare pens in the UK in Stainless Steel.
Peter.
A friend of mine makes Gyrocopters in Mainland China, Assembles them in his workshop at his home next to Canberra. He frequents his manufacturing business many months of the year. He has explained the complexities of Manufacture to me they are exhaustive.
Taiwan has a separate set of policies and complexities.
All of this means you buy directly or indirectly in American Dollars from China. Some businesses such as Phils make their own arrangements direct with Taiwon that commit them to buy minimum quantities in American Dollars.Then the chain of supply makes these kits unique to him in the UK, he Phil has an agent in the US.
Phil directs the manufacture of Shakespeare pens in the UK in Stainless Steel.
Peter.
Yes, there is a huge difference in quality. It relates to manufacturing tolerances, mechanism quality, plating, quality control..... the list goes on.
I've just used the example of a sierra in another thread, and it's a handy example here too. Take a sierra from more or less any ebay seller or any online seller which has a name akin to penkits dot whatever. It will be Chinese for sure. Take a Berea sierra, who are the people that designed it in the first place, (which you can buy from Turners Retreat), which is Taiwanese. First compare the centre bands - the former looks like its been embossed with a blunt stick on a piece of tin foil - the latter is properly engraved. You can spot the difference a mile off, even in just a photograph.
Next, look at the mechanism. You can't spot that in a photo, but side by side the difference in quality, both in appearance and in operation is enormous. The former looks, shall we say, shabby, next to the latter - looks aren't everything when it comes to a mechanism, but that translates to the operation too. The former is looser and wishywashy, so is its screw thread connection to the nib section - the latter is crisper and tighter.
Look at the way the two press together. Look at the quality of the plating. The difference between them will be obvious with the kits in your hand.
In terms of variety, kit designs are driven by a small handful of designers/manufacturers, who include Beaufort Ink (of course) Berea, PennState, Dayacom, and to a certain extent, Timberbits, all of whom have manufacturing arrangements with factories in Taiwan, because the quality of manufacturer there is much, much higher than in China. There are one or two other manufacturers who make in Taiwan too, but their kits are mainly just copies, (and just to cover my own back, there may be one or two people on the periphery as well). The Chinese then come along and copy, then sell them through anybody who is prepared to buy and re-sell, which they often do from their spare bedroom. The main Chinese supplier is called Rizheng, and anybody at all can set up a pen kit selling business re-selling their products, which as I say, are more or less all knock offs of kits designed by those in the list above.
I've just used the example of a sierra in another thread, and it's a handy example here too. Take a sierra from more or less any ebay seller or any online seller which has a name akin to penkits dot whatever. It will be Chinese for sure. Take a Berea sierra, who are the people that designed it in the first place, (which you can buy from Turners Retreat), which is Taiwanese. First compare the centre bands - the former looks like its been embossed with a blunt stick on a piece of tin foil - the latter is properly engraved. You can spot the difference a mile off, even in just a photograph.
Next, look at the mechanism. You can't spot that in a photo, but side by side the difference in quality, both in appearance and in operation is enormous. The former looks, shall we say, shabby, next to the latter - looks aren't everything when it comes to a mechanism, but that translates to the operation too. The former is looser and wishywashy, so is its screw thread connection to the nib section - the latter is crisper and tighter.
Look at the way the two press together. Look at the quality of the plating. The difference between them will be obvious with the kits in your hand.
In terms of variety, kit designs are driven by a small handful of designers/manufacturers, who include Beaufort Ink (of course) Berea, PennState, Dayacom, and to a certain extent, Timberbits, all of whom have manufacturing arrangements with factories in Taiwan, because the quality of manufacturer there is much, much higher than in China. There are one or two other manufacturers who make in Taiwan too, but their kits are mainly just copies, (and just to cover my own back, there may be one or two people on the periphery as well). The Chinese then come along and copy, then sell them through anybody who is prepared to buy and re-sell, which they often do from their spare bedroom. The main Chinese supplier is called Rizheng, and anybody at all can set up a pen kit selling business re-selling their products, which as I say, are more or less all knock offs of kits designed by those in the list above.
Penpal
Grand Master
Marketing wise can you buy a Shakespeare directly from Dan? He has shadowed this pen that he makes. All pressure on Phil to market.
Peter.
Peter.
Yes you can Peter. Phil doesn’t market or sell the Shakespeare. Dan is working with Alex. Bellringer who has set up the company for British made kits.
[MENTION=1196]glenpen[/MENTION]. The thing to do is I believe is if you want to buy the Taiwan kits then buy from suppliers that will give you that information.
Most important thing is getting to know your supplier.
I agree with Phil on the many .coms being the cheaper pen kits. However there are exceptions to that in the likes of Turners workshop and penkits direct.
As for Some Daycom kits they have a little logo on the clip which is simple to see but not on all their kits unfortunately
But the simple thing is ask,talk and look at the kits. If they won’t give you that info then walk away if you want specific quality kits.
Hope that makes sense.
Walter
Fellow
In most other industries this would be featuring on "Fake Britain" and similar TV programmes and the perpetrators would be pursued by trading standards officers and prosecuted, but because no one is being harmed by dangerous electrics or placed a risk by brake pads made from recycled underpants, and because none of the pen kit importers have the litigative clout of multi national brands to enforce their intellectual property rights the gullible continue to be ripped off and pass on shoddy products to their own customers whilst convincing themselves they have made a saving.
Penpal
Grand Master
Two of my favoured people Dan And Alex thanks Eamonn, both enquiring minds prepared to act to solve a need. Well done you two. Credit where credit is due.
Peter.
Peter.
wm460
Grand Master
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I found out the difference between a chinese and Taiwanese dust collector, the Taiwanese motor was a lot more powerful, both 2 hp.
Prokraft
Apprentice Member
I hope someone will appreciate I am now going to be totally honest and open - I have had the opportunity to buy some slimlines with a Taiwan twist and some kind of rubbery end (there is probably a meaningless name for it that I frankly cannot be bothered to think about) - I have not got them yet but when I do I will have a look and see if I can tell the difference.
I am not sure I will be able to tell as I rarely turn a pen (I prefer to make tools and accessories to save turners from being ripped off by the likes of Axminster selling bottle stopper arbours and bushings purely designed for the extraction of cash from the unsuspecting customer).
I will report back when they arrive and let you know - trust is a strange thing when buying from PRC or ROC! As an example our pen kits are filled with ink from Germany - exactly how I'm supposed to verify this I'm not sure - Phil will surely know the answer, but I treat these things a bit like wine - I don't care what the reviewers say about it you either like it or you don't - simple as.
People should also be aware that sometimes when buying from Taiwan that they also import from mainland China and supply from Taiwan - not sure if this happens with pens but it does with other hardware. However there are companies in mainland China that are superb (please bear in mind a majority of our business is hardware not specifically pens but I'm sure there may be a crossover at some point)
I am not sure I will be able to tell as I rarely turn a pen (I prefer to make tools and accessories to save turners from being ripped off by the likes of Axminster selling bottle stopper arbours and bushings purely designed for the extraction of cash from the unsuspecting customer).
I will report back when they arrive and let you know - trust is a strange thing when buying from PRC or ROC! As an example our pen kits are filled with ink from Germany - exactly how I'm supposed to verify this I'm not sure - Phil will surely know the answer, but I treat these things a bit like wine - I don't care what the reviewers say about it you either like it or you don't - simple as.
People should also be aware that sometimes when buying from Taiwan that they also import from mainland China and supply from Taiwan - not sure if this happens with pens but it does with other hardware. However there are companies in mainland China that are superb (please bear in mind a majority of our business is hardware not specifically pens but I'm sure there may be a crossover at some point)
One thing I have noticed over the years and in my experience of dealing with those suppliers is.
Chinese New Year will often effect the following..(which is not that far away)
Chinese Manufacturing will often close down for a two week period.
- Shipping times often cease or has minimal shipping arrangements.
- Shipping costs are usually much more expensive during new year break and two weeks after..(they know manufacturers need to get orders out and customers need it so make hay while the sun shines)
Taiwan, most manufacturers often run through but increase their prices knowing that the market supply is low.
Any buying for me from that sector won't be until Mid March now.
Thought I would share that with you all as that is my experience over the years.
Chinese New Year will often effect the following..(which is not that far away)
Chinese Manufacturing will often close down for a two week period.
- Shipping times often cease or has minimal shipping arrangements.
- Shipping costs are usually much more expensive during new year break and two weeks after..(they know manufacturers need to get orders out and customers need it so make hay while the sun shines)
Taiwan, most manufacturers often run through but increase their prices knowing that the market supply is low.
Any buying for me from that sector won't be until Mid March now.
Thought I would share that with you all as that is my experience over the years.
Penpal
Grand Master
My experience was incredible for me I called the Bank of China incorrectly,result big delays ,heaps of grief . Then the Chinese New year arrived,more delays. Only one person in the Chinese firm had sufficient English and she could be anywhere in the factory premises. Then the cruncher I paid for Air Freight,their cunning move was Air Mail (no reduction). Then it hit our customs in Sydney, all parcels pass through. Another long delay and the barstewards asked for a per day charge while they held my parcel,scary stuff.
I went into our Customs place in the City to be greeted by an enormous Hodiak Bear confiscated by them. I broke from caution and questioned the Ancestry of those in charge in Sydney and the additional serious extra cost they were demanding. Then lucky for me they put me on the phone to Customs in Sydney accidentally finding a man in Authority with real understanding who wiped the extra charges and then sent my parcel to me COD from Sydney,enough to make me ever grateful.
Chuck in having to pay in US Dollars with ours at a real low value, charges and real costs I was glad that was now over. I paid extra for hang gold meaning the gold parts were plated on a form of tree suspension for a thicker coating.
Later on a few occasions I was able to have a friend whose home was in the City in China who went to the factory and made direct purchases. This guy was previously the Head Anesthisist at the major hospital there in this Province in China..He spent a few years here with his wife and daughter while she went through high school and University. He tried to qualify here in Canberra but this is infuriating with bar...ards blocking every which way.He had two degrees in Great Britain but I helped him compose his letters and he and his wife parted company to top it off. Finally the Hospital in China made him an offer too good to refuse,I helped him with that as well. We were good mates he worked taking blood for Pathology.
So yes Eamonn like Yorrik alas I learned my lessons well.
Cheers Eamonn mate.
Peter.
I went into our Customs place in the City to be greeted by an enormous Hodiak Bear confiscated by them. I broke from caution and questioned the Ancestry of those in charge in Sydney and the additional serious extra cost they were demanding. Then lucky for me they put me on the phone to Customs in Sydney accidentally finding a man in Authority with real understanding who wiped the extra charges and then sent my parcel to me COD from Sydney,enough to make me ever grateful.
Chuck in having to pay in US Dollars with ours at a real low value, charges and real costs I was glad that was now over. I paid extra for hang gold meaning the gold parts were plated on a form of tree suspension for a thicker coating.
Later on a few occasions I was able to have a friend whose home was in the City in China who went to the factory and made direct purchases. This guy was previously the Head Anesthisist at the major hospital there in this Province in China..He spent a few years here with his wife and daughter while she went through high school and University. He tried to qualify here in Canberra but this is infuriating with bar...ards blocking every which way.He had two degrees in Great Britain but I helped him compose his letters and he and his wife parted company to top it off. Finally the Hospital in China made him an offer too good to refuse,I helped him with that as well. We were good mates he worked taking blood for Pathology.
So yes Eamonn like Yorrik alas I learned my lessons well.
Cheers Eamonn mate.
Peter.