Taiwan Twist

[Prokraft]

My good friend Glenpen asked a few days ago how do you know the difference between a Chinese twist and a Taiwan twist.

I have started a new thread as I thought it may be of interest and someone may miss an older post.

Today I have had a delivery of some Fancy Slimline Touch Stylus pen kits in gold with a Taiwan twist mechanism so I thought it a good opportunity to photograph them to show the difference (at least from the manufacturer we use).

I initially thought I would be unable to find any difference between the 2 but I was wrong.

I don't wish to make criticism of anyone else but some have mentioned that the tooling is better and tolerances better - that, I'm afraid, is heresay (unless you have inspected & measured all the machinery), and there is only 1 thing that provides the evidence - the end result - so here it is - subject to the tolerances of my meagre calipers.

I have attached the photos which I have marked to show the differences as best I can. They are different coloured steel, the Taiwan is a lighter colour and I suspect is a slightly different composition but I am not a metallurgist and have no means of testing this.

As yet I have not made one with the Taiwan twist, that is the next job (I will certainly have to dust off the mandrel), I have twisted both to assess their action, the Taiwan feels slightly easier but that is only my opinion - there's not much in it. I suspect both will work.

I know this is going to be repeating myself from the other day and it is certainly not meant to be arrogant but I tend to treat most things as I do wine - Jilly Goolden can spout forth about how wonderful a wine is - it does not mean I will like it - the only person that knows that is me and I can make my own mind up (until I get to bottle No2 - then they're all great).

I hope this helps or is of interest.

Cheers

 

[Prokraft]

I have now turned one of these pens - I confess I had a slight dose of the shakes when doing it knowing all you expert penmakers will see it - I am certainly not in your class nor claim to be.

Anyway, the Taiwan twist was inserted as per normal, it seemed exactly the same to fit as a Chinese one.

I tried it and couldn't really tell the difference between two so I blind tested the wife and my boy - they couldn't tell any difference either in terms of twistability.

So feel free to draw your own conclusion from that - The Taiwan twist certainly looks better made but when it's on the inside and you don't see it we wouldn't know - you might!

 

[glenpen]

I have now turned one of these pens - I confess I had a slight dose of the shakes when doing it knowing all you expert penmakers will see it - I am certainly not in your class nor claim to be.

Anyway, the Taiwan twist was inserted as per normal, it seemed exactly the same to fit as a Chinese one.

I tried it and couldn't really tell the difference between two so I blind tested the wife and my boy - they couldn't tell any difference either in terms of twistability.

So feel free to draw your own conclusion from that - The Taiwan twist certainly looks better made but when it's on the inside and you don't see it we wouldn't know - you might!

View attachment 34707

Hi Jon
Nice looking pen and for all the details you have sent. No doubt some will say the plating on one is better than the other, time will tell and should be interesting

Glen

 

[Penpal]

REal and special pen there Glen,this one is a fine example in design and build. Different and mighty useful.

Peter.

 

[Phil Dart]

As Glen says, time will tell. I would add to that though that the Chinese slimline I made for my wife some time ago. which she used each day to do her morning crossword, is now unusable because the refill started to retract of it's own accord. She had to constantly re-twist the mech in order to extend the refill again. The plating on the CB and nib section started to suffer too. It gave good service for about six months and was then consigned to the bin. The Taiwanese slimline which I subsequently made for her, continues to give good service. I can't tell you how long she has been using it, but certainly a couple of years or more.

Are you planning to conduct a similar test with Sierras?

 

[Bigblackdog]

what is the price difference in the kit?

 

[Penpal]

Another thought my first Sirocco I had to press the living daylights out of to fit the top cat and the pen shows no sign of that where it was pressed and the finish is so deep and meaningful it will last for a very long time.

My son installs industrial Air Conditioning in tough environments, regularly hanging from his fingertips at great heights, his Slimline survived many drops and abrasion for a long time, reckon that was a severe test for my outlay of a dollar at the time for the kit. What do we want for fourpence,Crayfish? Currently working in Alice Springs (look up the temps there).

Peter.

 

[glenpen]

As Glen says, time will tell. I would add to that though that the Chinese slimline I made for my wife some time ago. which she used each day to do her morning crossword, is now unusable because the refill started to retract of it's own accord. She had to constantly re-twist the mech in order to extend the refill again. The plating on the CB and nib section started to suffer too. It gave good service for about six months and was then consigned to the bin. The Taiwanese slimline which I subsequently made for her, continues to give good service. I can't tell you how long she has been using it, but certainly a couple of years or more.

Are you planning to conduct a similar test with Sierras?

I have a Chinese twist pen which was one of my first pens I made. I have used the pen all the time for nearly 3 years (until resonantly when I changed to a click pen from Prokraft which in my opinion is one of the best pens around at a sensible price which I believe to be Chinese ) with no problem at all .
Glen

 

[wm460]

Great looking pen Jon.

 

[Phil Dart]

I have a Chinese twist pen which was one of my first pens I made. I have used the pen all the time for nearly 3 years (until resonantly when I changed to a click pen from Prokraft which in my opinion is one of the best pens around at a sensible price which I believe to be Chinese ) with no problem at all .
Glen

I am not having a pop at anyone's products in particular, nor am I seeking to imply that every Chinese kit is poor or that every Taiwanese kit is better. Of course there are kits out of China that are good, and I have no doubt that Jon's clicker is amongst them. This particular thread arose as a direct result of another that you began, when you asked if there is a difference between kits from those two countries. It is possible to pick and choose examples to support or counter any argument, but in general, as a whole, overall, by and large, on balance, in the final analysis, all in all, and any other synonyms a thesaurus can give me to say in general, the answer is yes there is, which is what I said originally, and amongst those with a wide experience of different pen kits I am not sure there are many who would argue with that.

 

[Walter]

There are Chinese twist mechanisms and Chinese twist mechanisms, then there are Taiwanese twist mechanisms.

In my experience some of the Chinese mechanisms are fine but some of them suffer from the problem that Phil's wife's pen displayed of retracting when in use. Not always after six months, sometimes after six minutes. Two mechanisms from the same supplier (Rizheng) can be completely different in operation and it is near to impossible to tell which will be working in two years time and which will not. I have never experienced such a problem with the Taiwanese mechanisms. So it is not the case that the Chinese mechanism are always poor quality but rather that the Taiwanese mechanisms are more consistent in quality. I know this is not a very scientific evaluation, but with all due respect to Jon, neither is a brief cosmetic examination and testing the twistability of one pen.

 

[Bucks]

I’ve got a few of the slimlines with the Chinese Mechanisms knocking around that I use, I’ve noticed that one of those the nib keeps retracting while writing with it.

 

[Prokraft]

We have these on offer at £2.70 - got a deal - happy to pass it on.

 

[Prokraft]

Not scientific but intended to help answer a question and provide some facts - having done a little policing I was taught it is not what you know or what you think, it is what you can prove that matters. I have seen no other evidence of any kind posted here just historical anecdotes and opinions. What I suggested is that perhaps it is best to decide for yourself which is an acceptable kit.

I do get a little annoyed at the continual slagging off Chinese products - I will make the point that there are a lot of people who might like to take up turning as a hobby and they will probably start with a cheap Chinese kit to see if they enjoy it - if you cut out this end of the market say goodbye to potential long-term turners.

China produce some absolute rubbish and some very good products too - my supplier is a Chinese one - but they use some Taiwanese parts and this I suspect is a bit like buying a BMW - you think it's German but it is probably made in Poland from a parts bin obtained worldwide - it is globalisation and China is right in the middle of it.

I'm sure we would all like to live in castles and drive Rolls Royces, I for one can't afford it and therefore make other choices within my budget.

And thank goodness some items get copied otherwise we would all have Benz car, travel in a Stevenson train and call friends on a Bell telephone.

With due respect.

 

[Bill Mooney]

I’ve made a lot of Chinese slimlines & on some the refill does retract when using the pen so Phil’s wife isn’t alone. With the ones from Taiwan I find the twist mechanism has an indent to stop the refill from retracting when being used.

 

[glenpen]

I must be different from many on this forum. I have sold Chinese twist pens for the last 3 plus years and NOT had any complaints from a single person. Any thing you buy will have some failures its expected but what percent of twist pens are you talking about that fail. Another point why don't people who sell kits say they are from Chinese or Taiwan. One or two may tell you but not many. Don't say you should ask them it doesn't wash with me.

 

[silver]

[MENTION=1744]Prokraft[/MENTION] [MENTION=1196]glenpen[/MENTION]

I understand where you are both coming from but in my own personal experience in the last 17 years, also building on my fathers who had his experience since the late 80's on pen kits.

I'm sure that many of the "oldies" to pen turning have this same experience, maybe the newer kits have changed and we are "misjudging" what we know and have experienced.

All I can say is "in my own experience I have found that the Taiwanese kits were a better quality kit than the Chinese ones" Now that s based on the amount experience stated above.

Having not had much experience with the Taiwanese kits over the last 4 years maybe they are a better quality than they used to be now and could be a better option.

Its a bit like the Skoda argument isn't it!

That is my experience and nothing can take that away, its not a "mine is better than thou" argument and I am not dishing the Chinese kits.

I have always said that the Chinese kits have their place in the penturning world and offer a good alternative for the beginner wanting to start out the hobby.

I still buy the Taiwan slimline kits as they are used by my Grandson, he knocks them out and sells them to his friends. That said we have had issues with transmissions failing in the same way as Phil's Wife had and also failing to operate at all, albeit in a small quantity.

So my comments on your original thread of "how can you tell" still stand as I have had at least 100 Chinese kits over the last 4 years and never had one fail.
[MENTION=1196]glenpen[/MENTION], "Don't say you should ask them it doesn't wash with me" comment still stands with me and you should be able to ask the question.

If they won't answer then walk away. Simple, get to know what you are buying so that its legitimate and also ethically sourced as well.

I have dealt with high profile commercial customers that want to know what they are buying and where its from so as not to "come ethically unstuck" so maybe its in my nature to ask and walk away if its not answered correctly.

Sorry to be to the point but just putting my experience on it.

 

[Walter]

Not scientific but intended to help answer a question and provide some facts - having done a little policing I was taught it is not what you know or what you think, it is what you can prove that matters

I cannot see that a visual inspection and then assembling one pen and trying it for five minutes provides any evidence or proves anything. Having been a professional auditor for a significant part of my career I fully understand what does and does not constitute evidence.

I have seen no other evidence of any kind posted here just historical anecdotes and opinions.

At least four members have reported self retracting mechanisms, that is neither historical nor anecdotal. It is however evidence and I for one can produce physical evidence as can Phil's wife.

I do get a little annoyed at the continual slagging off Chinese products - I will make the point that there are a lot of people who might like to take up turning as a hobby and they will probably start with a cheap Chinese kit to see if they enjoy it - if you cut out this end of the market say goodbye to potential long-term turners.

I take your point and I agree that there is a need for this end of the market however it is equally likely that beginners will be put off by poor quality products.

China produce some absolute rubbish and some very good products too

Agreed, as I already said, not all Chinese products are poor quality.

 

[Prokraft]

Can I please stress the following:

1] I was trying to HELP with a physical identification - no-one has come up with anything better so far

2] I have shown by way of a photograph some physical differences of 2 mechanisms, I thought with the opportunity in front of me it might HELP somebody

3] I have never claimed to have more experience with pens than others on the forum in fact the exact opposite.

Walter I'm afraid if you accept everybody elses' stories as evidence then surely you will accept what I have said as evidence as well or do you get pick and choose the evidence you like?

I expressed in my second post my experience and suggested anyone reading that they draw their own conclusion.

I will add to my "evidence" and say in the short time (3 years) of selling a few pens (as service lines only) I have never had one fail or one returned to me due to failure. I have also never ever bought a pen kit from Rhizeng - before someone jumps to that conclusion.

I am sure Taiwanese kits are generally better quality than Chinese but I have to ask again - how do you PROVE where they come from? Or is it a case of I've had one from that supplier I like it and I'll stick to it?

I know the Taiwanese use Chinese products as I have several hardware suppliers that are honest enough to tell me they don't have the tooling to make the product I require and will get it manufactured on the mainland.

Rest assured I won't help again for fear of being "electronically" kicked in the balls

 

[Bill Mooney]

Hey guys, don’t turn this into an argument. I accept what you say about having no kits returned as failures Jon. You’ve probably been lucky where I was unlucky but it’s not that important that anyone should fall out. Life’s too short.