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Taps & Dies
- Thread starter ataylor
- Start date
As Jim asked what are you going to do with them. For example BA is ideal if you intend to do some model engineering and very small work. Metric which is a standard set for everyday use as it is now easy to get hold of nuts and bolts. Then there are the UNC, UNF, Whitworth, and BSP these are the most common but not used as much nowadays great for restoration jobs on older machines and engines. Along with those there are some very obscure ones out there.
Penpal
Grand Master
wm460
Grand Master
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- Mark
Metric but see if you can get a set with three taps.
billyb_imp
Registered
I would go with the metric, used all over the place in equipment you may have around the home, shed, garage etc
Metric but see if you can get a set with three taps.
I would say if it had TWO taps that would be okay (not being disagreeable Mark!) A 'first' tap makes starting a thread easy, a 'second' tap cuts the thread to a more defined end, a 'third' or 'plug' tap is only used in blind holes to take the thread all the way to the end of the hole. For pen-making I can't really see you needing a plug tap - am I wrong?
To be honest my set has first and second taps but since I only tap soft materials I only ever use the second tap. Maybe that's all you need?
In case anyone was wondering, a single die has both first and second threading capability simply by reversing the die in the holder. A neat trick for cutting male threads tight up to a shoulder.
Hi fellas,
As a retired engineer and gunsmith I beg to differ on the format of taps and dies to buy. I hate metric anything! be it taps and dies or klms or liters and everything else! The BA thread system is different to all the other thread forms and is extrmely usefull. The size variation is superb. I am building a 5 inch gauge steam loco called "Simplex" and I found BA threads were excellent to use. Another thread form that I use even more than BA threads is the American Number series, these run from 1 thru to 12. These come in both a fine and a coarse thread. Both the coarse and fine have their most excellent points in use. I used a lot of the Fine series when I had my Gunsmithing business and they were very successful as a thread form. The problem with metric threads (Ugh! SIC!) is the lack of sizes. ie, the variation is too great between sizes. If you are going to use a fine thread for a project and cant decide between BA and the Number Series (US), then compare the thread form of the BA to the US and metric forms. BA threads have a thread angle of 47.5 degrees and the metric (choke) and all US threads have a thread angle of 60 degrees. There is another thread form used in special machinery called Acme but this is never used in small projects.
The small diameter US threads that are given a number can be a problem trying to figure out what the number means relative to the diameter of the screw. There is an easy way to figure this out :-
Take the Number of the screw , eg, '10' and multiply this number by 13.
10 x 13 = 130
to the resulting number, add 60
130 + 60 = 190
190 is the Major Diameter of the screw in "Thou's"
= 0.190" Diameter.
I hope this helps you all a little more to understand threads. If you have any problem about threads and screwcutting, feel free to have a chat with with me.
Joe
I hope this helps you
As a retired engineer and gunsmith I beg to differ on the format of taps and dies to buy. I hate metric anything! be it taps and dies or klms or liters and everything else! The BA thread system is different to all the other thread forms and is extrmely usefull. The size variation is superb. I am building a 5 inch gauge steam loco called "Simplex" and I found BA threads were excellent to use. Another thread form that I use even more than BA threads is the American Number series, these run from 1 thru to 12. These come in both a fine and a coarse thread. Both the coarse and fine have their most excellent points in use. I used a lot of the Fine series when I had my Gunsmithing business and they were very successful as a thread form. The problem with metric threads (Ugh! SIC!) is the lack of sizes. ie, the variation is too great between sizes. If you are going to use a fine thread for a project and cant decide between BA and the Number Series (US), then compare the thread form of the BA to the US and metric forms. BA threads have a thread angle of 47.5 degrees and the metric (choke) and all US threads have a thread angle of 60 degrees. There is another thread form used in special machinery called Acme but this is never used in small projects.
The small diameter US threads that are given a number can be a problem trying to figure out what the number means relative to the diameter of the screw. There is an easy way to figure this out :-
Take the Number of the screw , eg, '10' and multiply this number by 13.
10 x 13 = 130
to the resulting number, add 60
130 + 60 = 190
190 is the Major Diameter of the screw in "Thou's"
= 0.190" Diameter.
I hope this helps you all a little more to understand threads. If you have any problem about threads and screwcutting, feel free to have a chat with with me.
Joe
I hope this helps you
A very interesting thread, welcome to the forum Joe, how about introducing yourself in the 'Introduce Yourself Thread' and show us some pictures of what you've done?
wm460
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- Mark
David, I bought a set of taps and dies that only had starter taps, but since need a lot of time to tap blind holes, mainly in steel.
Joe, welcome to the forum, why aren't you my next door neighbour.
Joe, welcome to the forum, why aren't you my next door neighbour.
Hi Joe and welcome, good to hear another point of view and good to have someone to debate wirh.
I would like to take up a couple of points with you.
Firstly the BA thread system is still widely used in our electrical goods and I have not heard anybody say a bad word about it but it is an old system.
Our country has gone Metric, like it or not we have to live with it, therefore have to use it.
It is what is available at a realistic price in this country and not all of us are engineers building presicion equipment so cannot justify spending huge amounts of dosh on something that may get used only twice or thrice before we pop our clogs init?
Maybe the younger members would benefit from a £400 tool but when I can buy a tool to do the same job for £8.50 then I will, the arguement of it only lasting a year means it comes with a lifetime warrenty to me init?
Secondly The sizes of pen threads are likely to be much larger than BA sizes, it's been a while but if I remember rightly BA deosn't reach as big as 8mm o/d so would be a total waste of money if a 13mm thread is needed.
More likely in this country a boot sale would revail a dead gas fitters kit full of useful BSF, UNF, Whitworth taps and dies which would also do the job admirably but if you go to your diy store to buy a set you're gonna get metric simples.
Thirdly you go to the space industry and say Acme thread "is never used in small projects." and they will laugh at you, I am currently working for the company that landed a load of them on a comet.
My duties there are as a cleaner of a clean area, if that makes any sense, I watched with interest as a machinist threaded a crystal the size of the luminous spot on my wristwatch.
The chat in these forums at the time was one of triple start threads so It was easy to bring up the subject at work (hoping to find out where they kept the tools for such and borrow them).
No such thing here was explained, it could cost anything £10,000 for a single screw to be made for a satelite, why make it in a size which would get used to replace a lost consumable screw?
With all due respect (you won't hear that from me often) so you know I mean it, rather than come and impress us with your knowledge and I am sure we duly are, answer the question, BA or Metric?
Answer has to be Metric unfortunatley.
I would like to take up a couple of points with you.
Firstly the BA thread system is still widely used in our electrical goods and I have not heard anybody say a bad word about it but it is an old system.
Our country has gone Metric, like it or not we have to live with it, therefore have to use it.
It is what is available at a realistic price in this country and not all of us are engineers building presicion equipment so cannot justify spending huge amounts of dosh on something that may get used only twice or thrice before we pop our clogs init?
Maybe the younger members would benefit from a £400 tool but when I can buy a tool to do the same job for £8.50 then I will, the arguement of it only lasting a year means it comes with a lifetime warrenty to me init?
Secondly The sizes of pen threads are likely to be much larger than BA sizes, it's been a while but if I remember rightly BA deosn't reach as big as 8mm o/d so would be a total waste of money if a 13mm thread is needed.
More likely in this country a boot sale would revail a dead gas fitters kit full of useful BSF, UNF, Whitworth taps and dies which would also do the job admirably but if you go to your diy store to buy a set you're gonna get metric simples.
Thirdly you go to the space industry and say Acme thread "is never used in small projects." and they will laugh at you, I am currently working for the company that landed a load of them on a comet.
My duties there are as a cleaner of a clean area, if that makes any sense, I watched with interest as a machinist threaded a crystal the size of the luminous spot on my wristwatch.
The chat in these forums at the time was one of triple start threads so It was easy to bring up the subject at work (hoping to find out where they kept the tools for such and borrow them).
No such thing here was explained, it could cost anything £10,000 for a single screw to be made for a satelite, why make it in a size which would get used to replace a lost consumable screw?
With all due respect (you won't hear that from me often) so you know I mean it, rather than come and impress us with your knowledge and I am sure we duly are, answer the question, BA or Metric?
Answer has to be Metric unfortunatley.
Walter
Fellow
Welcome to the forum Joe
I have to agree with Brian (Grump). Whilst the extensive information you have provided is correct it is largely irrelevant to either pen making or the common threads that members are likely to come across in modern machinery and motor vehicles in the real world on this side of the Atlantic in the 21st century.
I have a variety of taps in UNF, BA, BSP, Whitworth and metric sizes. the only ones that get regularly used nowadays are the metric sizes.
Fountain pen nibs have metric threads so in that context any other standard is irrelevant.
So to get back to Andy's original question. For occasional use a cheap set of metric taps and dies from Lidl or Aldi will suffice. If you intend to use them more regularly then you might want to pay a little more for something like this set from Cromwell Tools. Unless you are a full time engineer you will not need anything better.
If you plan to use them for making kitless pens then I suggest you read this tutorial by Mike Redburn on IAP.
I have to agree with Brian (Grump). Whilst the extensive information you have provided is correct it is largely irrelevant to either pen making or the common threads that members are likely to come across in modern machinery and motor vehicles in the real world on this side of the Atlantic in the 21st century.
I have a variety of taps in UNF, BA, BSP, Whitworth and metric sizes. the only ones that get regularly used nowadays are the metric sizes.
Fountain pen nibs have metric threads so in that context any other standard is irrelevant.
So to get back to Andy's original question. For occasional use a cheap set of metric taps and dies from Lidl or Aldi will suffice. If you intend to use them more regularly then you might want to pay a little more for something like this set from Cromwell Tools. Unless you are a full time engineer you will not need anything better.
If you plan to use them for making kitless pens then I suggest you read this tutorial by Mike Redburn on IAP.
wm460
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You wouldn't believe it the first thing I had to do in the shed to day was to tap an M8 x 1.25 blind hole.
Luckily I had them.
Luckily I had them.
wm460
Grand Master
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For kit-less pens you will need a real fine thread like 0.75 unless you go to the triples start taps and dies.
Hi guys, sorry for the delay in returning to you all. I have had to reorganise my life after a disc in my back decided it wanted to protrude onto the nerve at L4/L5. I am heading to Brissie in two weeks for the required opp.
Thanks for all your warm and welcome replies.
Why I hate everything Metric
Australia took up the metric system in the early '70's when I was building my house. There had been lots of yabber on TV about how good it would be and how easy it would make teaching maths as everything is based on the unit 10. Yeah, right! The Australian public were told that metric would simply “slip” into our culture like cream does into coffee. Another big lie!
The system arrived on a Monday morning, all gentle and quiet like. I had taken the trailer to my favorite hardware store to buy some fibro sheets. These were to line the walls for the two new rooms that I had just finished building all the framework for and all that I needed was now the fibro sheets. To my shocked horror, all the imperial sheets had been destroyed and dumped. The only material available was now “metricated”. These new sheets didn't fit any of the framework I had so carefully constructed and now the framework was useless. I also wanted to buy about 650 masonry blocks to finish the construction of the new room I had started. All the Imperial blocks had been destroyed so now I had to “marry” in the new size blocks. To say that I was unhappy was an understatement but it all grew worse and worse.
Industry was thrown into a turmoil, every metal working machine was now useless. Metric micrometers were now the “go”. All the dials and gearing on the lathes, milling machines and every other machine was now as useless as teats on a bull. All these machines had to disappear and they did. The national expense of converting, literally brought Australia to its knees. This was hushed up by the media.
It was impossible to toss out all the Imperial nut and bolts. The reason given was that all our military equipment came from the US and the US was an Imperial country. We therefore had to keep the Imperial nut and bolts. We still have all our “old” nuts and bolts with a few modifications. BA, BSW, BSF are now obsolete. BSP is still here and will be kept.
The general sizes of BSW, BSF bolts and screws were swapped for the nearest metic equivalent and supplied in “coarse and fine” threads. No other thread pitches were available and for the most part, still aren't. Some metric bolts are available with a choice of 4 and more pitches. Really? Well try and buy them, (in Australia!) It was ever so easy to screwcut an Imperial thread on a lathe. Not anymore! It's not easy to cut a metric thread on a metric lathe either. Everything I design to be made at home is drawn up on my CAD program in inches, very little is drawn in metric. Everything that I make on my lathe is made to fit my Imperial Micrometers.
Acme threads are wonderful if you know how to use them. The smallest bolt I made was a screwed shaft that adjusted the valve gear for my loco. The screwthread was 2 inches long and 1/4” in dia. The thread form was Acme and Left Handed. I had to screwcut the shaft and then cut the nut to fit the shaft. The nut was 1/2” long. It was great fun to make and it had absolute zero play. I taught some adult trainees who were under my wing at the BP refinery in the US. I had them screwcut a two start LH Stub Acme thread on a stainless steel shaft as part of a garlic press. They then had to screwcut the nut, also in stainless steel.
A two or three start Acme thread would be the perfect thing for making a pen as you fellas have already described. A tap and die for this thread would never be bought in Australia as a standard item. Buying any “abnormal” tools is a pain in the butt here, it's much worse in the cities outside the capitals of each State.
As for “metric” maths, forget it. No kid at school can recite the 11 or 12 times table anymore but why should they? They should be able to do it as it keeps their brain active. Any idiot can add zero's to multiply metric numbers but do they really know what the numbers mean?
For example, a dam released a volume of water that destroyed an entire town a few years ago. The volume was stated as something million gigaliters which has absolutely no meaning whatsoever. It was once stated as Acre feet. My property is 26 acres and an acre foot is very easy to vizualize as a volume. Now things have grown into ergs, pascals, newtons, millimeters, centimeters, decameters, antmeters, catmeters and a lot of other stupid rubbish that no-one can understand. Give me Imperial inches and pounds any day. There was nothing wrong with the way it was done before. I was an engineering technician at a university for 14 years. How do I know metric is a load of rubbish? I used to teach it!
Postscript
Yes, I know that one must never make a stainless bolt and a stainless nut from the same grade of SS. I chose this material to graphicly show my trainees why it's just not done. The SS was also chosen to show them the problems assocciated with machining this weird stuff. SS is actually quite soft but it's also quite tough as they found out.
Cheers,
and thanks for reading this complaing dribble
Joe
Thanks for all your warm and welcome replies.
Why I hate everything Metric
Australia took up the metric system in the early '70's when I was building my house. There had been lots of yabber on TV about how good it would be and how easy it would make teaching maths as everything is based on the unit 10. Yeah, right! The Australian public were told that metric would simply “slip” into our culture like cream does into coffee. Another big lie!
The system arrived on a Monday morning, all gentle and quiet like. I had taken the trailer to my favorite hardware store to buy some fibro sheets. These were to line the walls for the two new rooms that I had just finished building all the framework for and all that I needed was now the fibro sheets. To my shocked horror, all the imperial sheets had been destroyed and dumped. The only material available was now “metricated”. These new sheets didn't fit any of the framework I had so carefully constructed and now the framework was useless. I also wanted to buy about 650 masonry blocks to finish the construction of the new room I had started. All the Imperial blocks had been destroyed so now I had to “marry” in the new size blocks. To say that I was unhappy was an understatement but it all grew worse and worse.
Industry was thrown into a turmoil, every metal working machine was now useless. Metric micrometers were now the “go”. All the dials and gearing on the lathes, milling machines and every other machine was now as useless as teats on a bull. All these machines had to disappear and they did. The national expense of converting, literally brought Australia to its knees. This was hushed up by the media.
It was impossible to toss out all the Imperial nut and bolts. The reason given was that all our military equipment came from the US and the US was an Imperial country. We therefore had to keep the Imperial nut and bolts. We still have all our “old” nuts and bolts with a few modifications. BA, BSW, BSF are now obsolete. BSP is still here and will be kept.
The general sizes of BSW, BSF bolts and screws were swapped for the nearest metic equivalent and supplied in “coarse and fine” threads. No other thread pitches were available and for the most part, still aren't. Some metric bolts are available with a choice of 4 and more pitches. Really? Well try and buy them, (in Australia!) It was ever so easy to screwcut an Imperial thread on a lathe. Not anymore! It's not easy to cut a metric thread on a metric lathe either. Everything I design to be made at home is drawn up on my CAD program in inches, very little is drawn in metric. Everything that I make on my lathe is made to fit my Imperial Micrometers.
Acme threads are wonderful if you know how to use them. The smallest bolt I made was a screwed shaft that adjusted the valve gear for my loco. The screwthread was 2 inches long and 1/4” in dia. The thread form was Acme and Left Handed. I had to screwcut the shaft and then cut the nut to fit the shaft. The nut was 1/2” long. It was great fun to make and it had absolute zero play. I taught some adult trainees who were under my wing at the BP refinery in the US. I had them screwcut a two start LH Stub Acme thread on a stainless steel shaft as part of a garlic press. They then had to screwcut the nut, also in stainless steel.
A two or three start Acme thread would be the perfect thing for making a pen as you fellas have already described. A tap and die for this thread would never be bought in Australia as a standard item. Buying any “abnormal” tools is a pain in the butt here, it's much worse in the cities outside the capitals of each State.
As for “metric” maths, forget it. No kid at school can recite the 11 or 12 times table anymore but why should they? They should be able to do it as it keeps their brain active. Any idiot can add zero's to multiply metric numbers but do they really know what the numbers mean?
For example, a dam released a volume of water that destroyed an entire town a few years ago. The volume was stated as something million gigaliters which has absolutely no meaning whatsoever. It was once stated as Acre feet. My property is 26 acres and an acre foot is very easy to vizualize as a volume. Now things have grown into ergs, pascals, newtons, millimeters, centimeters, decameters, antmeters, catmeters and a lot of other stupid rubbish that no-one can understand. Give me Imperial inches and pounds any day. There was nothing wrong with the way it was done before. I was an engineering technician at a university for 14 years. How do I know metric is a load of rubbish? I used to teach it!
Postscript
Yes, I know that one must never make a stainless bolt and a stainless nut from the same grade of SS. I chose this material to graphicly show my trainees why it's just not done. The SS was also chosen to show them the problems assocciated with machining this weird stuff. SS is actually quite soft but it's also quite tough as they found out.
Cheers,
and thanks for reading this complaing dribble
Joe
The only SS nuts and bolts of the same grade being used together that I have seen are the ones made from Marine grade SS. The grade 316 appears to work ok. The same grade may fail if the nut is tensioned and released (ie, unloaded) on a regular basis. What happens is that the surfaces of the threads sieze up big-time! The threads basicly weld themselves together and they do an excellent job of this. Lubrication does help but it's not a permanent fix.
If you use SS nuts and bolts on your boat or yacht, you wont have any problems other than corrosion. SS bolts on boats are usually left tensioned up and are not undone over and over. If you have SS bolts holding fittings (winches etc.) through a wooden deck or rail, corrosion will be your biggest worry. I have seen 3/8 SS bolts corroded down to 1/8" dia where they passed through the timbers. The nut, end of the threaded bolt and the hex head were in perfect condition. This is a common problem with SS bolts. The material corrodes when free oxygen is unable to reach the SS. There are much better and far stronger materials for corrosion resistance available for about the same cost or not too much more.
My trainees discovered that SS does not make a long lasting component if threaded sections are continually undone; the very reason why I chose this material to be used for this project.
Hope this helps you
Joe
If you use SS nuts and bolts on your boat or yacht, you wont have any problems other than corrosion. SS bolts on boats are usually left tensioned up and are not undone over and over. If you have SS bolts holding fittings (winches etc.) through a wooden deck or rail, corrosion will be your biggest worry. I have seen 3/8 SS bolts corroded down to 1/8" dia where they passed through the timbers. The nut, end of the threaded bolt and the hex head were in perfect condition. This is a common problem with SS bolts. The material corrodes when free oxygen is unable to reach the SS. There are much better and far stronger materials for corrosion resistance available for about the same cost or not too much more.
My trainees discovered that SS does not make a long lasting component if threaded sections are continually undone; the very reason why I chose this material to be used for this project.
Hope this helps you
Joe
Well imperial I still used a lot in the UK even if you don't see it most petrol delivery equipment is still in imperial