Triple start taps and dies

[Phil Dart]

Just to let you know, I'm currently in the process of getting a selection of triple lead taps and dies on board for custom makers, because they seem to be more or less impossible to obtain other than from outside the UK

They will be TapCo, the same as the nib taps I've already got, and I've asked them to look at 11 x 0.8, 12 x 0.8 and 13 x 0.75, which I propose to make available as a set, comprising a 1 inch diameter die with a corresponding intermediate tap.

If there are other sizes you think should be there, or that taps should also include starters and/or plugs (bottoming) please let me know so I can consider adding them to the order.

Phil

 

[davidj44]

I have a 12mm x .8 x3 triple start set of die and tap from Mike Redburn. I have wondered, since using it, if a bottoming tap would be a useful addition as it would allow a neater finish to the cap thread - particularly if using translucent or semi transparent material. Does that make sense?

 

[Phil Dart]

Yes, that makes sense David. What do you feel about the need for a starter tap? and what do you feel about the virtues of a different pitch for the M13. Should it be 0.8 not 0.75 in your opinion or do you feel it wouldn't make much difference?

 

[davidj44]

The tap I got from Mike Redburn is, I think, an intermediate. It is no problem in acrylic. I probably regret not getting the bottoming tap as well! Thread pitch? Not an expert but the 0.8 x 3 looks neat and works well. Is there a need for a different pitch on the 13mm?

 

[silver]

Phil,

I have the 10, 12 and 14 0.8 triple and double sets some with all three but do manage with a starter and bottoming in some.

Not sure why you are going for the 11 and 13

I know some in the states had gone for the "odd sizes" but I believe that it was just to be different. (elitism) Don't get me wrong there are argument for both, but I don't agree with them.. But that's me.

Just may need to think about selling the drills for each tap size as well as they will be odd sizes that are not in the standard sets.

 

[davidj44]

Phil,

I have the 10, 12 and 14 0.8 triple and double sets some with all three but do manage with a starter and bottoming in some.

Not sure why you are going for the 11 and 13

I know some in the states had gone for the "odd sizes" but I believe that it was just to be different. (elitism) Don't get me wrong there are argument for both, but I don't agree with them.. But that's me.

Just may need to think about selling the drills for each tap size as well as they will be odd sizes that are not in the standard sets.

All makes sense to me - with my limited experience - I could see a use for 10mm myself.

 

[Phil Dart]

Is there a need for a different pitch on the 13mm?

That's the million dollar question. I've taken my guidance from what seems to be available in the States and all the 13's seem to be 0.75 whereas the smaller sizes seem to be 0.8. I don't know why. But I'll will speak to the manufacturers later today, and get their opinion - I'll also get a price for bottomimg taps whilst I'm at it.

Thanks for your input - it's appreciated

 

[Phil Dart]

Thanks for that Eamonn - you may have answered the pitch query too - it may be nothing more than being different.

It would be nice to stock them in many different sizes, and that is my ultimate aim, but cash flow prevents me from doing it all at once. Therefore I want to begin with the most useful sizes. Nothing is yet set in tablets of stone, and I'm extremely happy to hear opinions on size and other issues here, so thanks for that.

 

[silver]

Phil,

I have the 10, 12 and 14 0.8 triple and double sets some with all three but do manage with a starter and bottoming in some.

Sorry, miss quote..
The 10 is a .75.

Again there is not allot of point going for the specific thread pitch unless Tap co already have everything set up. That will make the cost of the T&D's much cheaper in the long run as set up costs are the big contributing factor. So you may well find that you are pushed towards them.

The only main talking point is in the double or triple starts really. I have both and TBH the triple feels nicer and easier to cap than a double but the double does the job. If that makes sense.

The pitch difference between 0.5, 0.8 and 0.75 wont be noticed by the end user. Just how anal the pen maker wants to be.

I may be wrong but I understand that most kit suppliers supply double thread fittings for the cap and postable.

So in my view the fine thread is right but it wont matter to the end user. the coarse thread (1.25 and above) doesn't look nice on a quality pen in my view so stick to fine thread.

I have seen a pen maker talking to a potential customer all about the thread, triple start and all the techie stuff that the person walked away.. They don't need it.. simple.

Having said all the above my thoughts are that a thread can be made of any type the pen maker wants to be, it does't have to be any of the above, provided it does the job and screws the cap and body together the end user really isn't bothered.

I have used a standard off the shelf 10 and 12's x 1.5 pitch, looked not bad and did what the customer wanted.

The only area you need the specifics is when using the nib fittings from suppliers... That is the only time you will truly need specialized threads.

 

[silver]

Thanks for that Eamonn - you may have answered the pitch query too - it may be nothing more than being different.

It would be nice to stock them in many different sizes, and that is my ultimate aim, but cash flow prevents me from doing it all at once. Therefore I want to begin with the most useful sizes. Nothing is yet set in tablets of stone, and I'm extremely happy to hear opinions on size and other issues here, so thanks for that.

I believe that going for the nib threads was right and also a standard set of cap to body threads in 10's, 12's and 14's is possibly right but start with the smaller sizes. There is some thought of going for the 9mm thread now as that will enable a smaller pen to be made as well.

 

[Phil Dart]

OK Eamonn - thanks a lot, that's really helpful. Points taken and understood - they will give me plenty to discuss with TapCo.

(Actually, most kits have a 3 or 4 start thread I think, unless they are acme type in which case they tend to be double)

I'd still be interested in hearing from other makers about the usefulness of various diameters, so I can perhaps get some sort of consensus.

 

[TaylorsMirfield.co.uk]

I am in the market for a 22mm mixer tap ;)

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

 

[sfurini]

Hi Phil
For me a 12 and 14 x .8 triple would cover most bases. I've got the 12 already but I recently made a wider barreled pen which would have looked better with a wider thread between the nib holder and barrel. Thanks for all the support and research you do to facilitate custom pen making in the UK.

 

[ZuluTiming]

Interesting thread.

I've been drooling on the other sister forum when they talked "group buy" and there are quite few threads about that. The newest one is for "august group buy" and they bought double start M12 and M14. Interesting, as mos of the previous purchases where triple start.
Maybe if you could talk to the "Group Buy Coordinator". They could guide you in asking Tapco the right questions, traps and tricks, and maybe they already have order codes from Tapco.
I would be interested if the price is right. I was looking for these for a long time and US prices where just ... too much.

 

[Phil Dart]

Hi Phil
For me a 12 and 14 x .8 triple would cover most bases. I've got the 12 already but I recently made a wider barreled pen which would have looked better with a wider thread between the nib holder and barrel. Thanks for all the support and research you do to facilitate custom pen making in the UK.

Interesting thread.

I've been drooling on the other sister forum when they talked "group buy" and there are quite few threads about that. The newest one is for "august group buy" and they bought double start M12 and M14. Interesting, as mos of the previous purchases where triple start.
Maybe if you could talk to the "Group Buy Coordinator". They could guide you in asking Tapco the right questions, traps and tricks, and maybe they already have order codes from Tapco.
I would be interested if the price is right. I was looking for these for a long time and US prices where just ... too much.

Thanks for your input gents. Without doubt there is consensus, both here and with people I've been speaking to in the phone for 12mm. And I think to start and keep doubles on the radar for a later date.

Just talk to me a bit more about larger sizes though. One or two people on the phone seem too think that 14 would lead to a pen that is really quite chunky. That may be because they don't like chunky pens. But why do you favour 14 over 13?

 

[silver]

(Actually, most kits have a 3 or 4 start thread I think, unless they are acme type in which case they tend to be double)
.

Never checked the standard thread as allot of what I use tend to be Acme thread. But thanks for the information.

Interesting thread.

I've been drooling on the other sister forum when they talked "group buy"

I would be interested if the price is right. I was looking for these for a long time and US prices where just ... too much.

Must admit I have never drooled but have brought through them before. TBH if their price isn't right then I think Phils price won't be either. Remember for the IAP GB they are getting it at cost and discounted price and supplying it to you with no profit.

I'm sure Phill won't be able to offer an "at cost service"

But if Phill can get a good discounted price then it will be a good move to UK customers..

 

[silver]

Just talk to me a bit more about larger sizes though. One or two people on the phone seem too think that 14 would lead to a pen that is really quite chunky. That may be because they don't like chunky pens. But why do you favour 14 over 13?

I would agree with that, I have a 14 mm and it ends up being a little thicker than an Emporer pen, anyone had one of those will know it's a chunky pen.

TBH I used the 14's once as a commission job and never used them since

I don't see that a 13 mm pen would be that much different of 0.5 mm thickness.

If it was me I would go with 10s and 12s Phil.

Or even look at smaller than 10s then I may be interested..:wink:

 

[Phil Dart]

Thanks for that Eamonn

 

[rayf6604]

When I have thought about the process of threading the parts, my concern has been threading the outside of the nib section that screws into the pen barrel, and the inside thread for the nib housing. What worries me is the potential for cracking the nib section during threading. Having not actually tried this yet I would think that having the maximum amount of thickness of material as practically possible would be a good thing? Am I over this thinking the process? I refer to using acrylics, metals I can appreciate.

Looking forward to seeing the outcome of your endeavours with this Phil, and I salute you for taking a lead with this. The cost of the taps and dies from that US supplier for triple starts is rather prohibitive for me and I was going to be happy with standard one starters.

 

[chas_41_uk]

I'd love to be able to afford to start making kitless pens, but I can't see that happening anytime soon

Ray, take a look at YouTube there's a couple of useful videos on there, A couple of the chaps make madrels that fit the inside threads before starting on the outside