What Is Causing This?

[Seb]

Evening all

Every so often lately, and typically on the really dark woods, I get to the final stage of finishing and notice white marks within the grain of the pen. This is totally ruining the finish, and although I can cut them back and retry, it never quite sorts the problem.

My finishing routine hasnt changed at all. I sand up to 400 including with the grain with the lathe off, I then apply some sanding sealer and finish the sanding with micro mesh all the way to 12000. This always looks and feels great, I then apply a little yorkshire grit, which I tend to find makes the final finish of microcrystalline wax (Hampshire Sheen) look better. I apply this with regular kitchen roll. There are no signs of white marks until I put the microcrystalline on, and I'm wondering if it's the consistency of it along with certain types of kitchen roll making it get stuck in the small open grain.

Any advice would be appreciated. I'm building up the courage to start with the Melamine Lacquer finish, so hopefully this wont be an issue once I get going with that (I've posted a query in the melamine post sticky at the top of the forum). I've included a pic of a problem pen I did tonight, and one I did last night without the issue. Both had the same finish routine.






Last nights, with no problem.

 

[flexi]

I think you have answered this yourself with your question... Personally I think it could be the wax sticking in the tiny pores of the Wenge, either try a dark wax or Melanie finish. It's not a dark art Vodoo process, just good finish technique, sand well, clean, apply. The better your pre finish is the better the Melanie looks.

 

[pittswood]

I tried Yorkshire grit before on a porous wood and found very tiny white bits embedded in the grain. I turned another pen out of the same wood and did not use the grit. No white bits in the grain. I also found the same problem when turning bowls, so I disposed of the grit. Hopes that helps.
Kelvin

 

[Phil Dart]

Some woods do display flecks in their grain, no matter how thoroughly yo finish them. However, on a general note, Yorkshire Grit is wax based, so before applying to an open grain, I would still be applying a sanding sealer. Some of the flecks that you're seeing are undoubtedly dried wax caught in the open pores of the wood.

 

[wm460]

I had that problem a few times.

 

[fortress]

Very nice looking pens indeed Seb, I always finish with Melamine lacquer now, it’s quick and very effective.

 

[Seb]

I think you have answered this yourself with your question... Personally I think it could be the wax sticking in the tiny pores of the Wenge, either try a dark wax or Melanie finish. It's not a dark art Vodoo process, just good finish technique, sand well, clean, apply. The better your pre finish is the better the Melanie looks.

Hi Mark. Thanks for the response. I think you're right, I just find it odd that it doesn't seem to do it on certain woods that I'd consider even more opened grained. That's why the kitchen towel thought came into my head, and maybe that I should be using single ply blue roll or something. I think between the Yorkshire Grit & Wax, it's just a build up of too much, and the really dark woods are highlighting it. Time to stop being a wuss, and get going with the Melamine tonight.

I tried Yorkshire grit before on a porous wood and found very tiny white bits embedded in the grain. I turned another pen out of the same wood and did not use the grit. No white bits in the grain. I also found the same problem when turning bowls, so I disposed of the grit. Hopes that helps.
Kelvin

Hi Kelvin. That's definitely helpful. It's interesting, as I didn't notice it immediately after the YG, but I bet in addition to the wax , it's just too much on darker woods. What finish did you switch to?

Some woods do display flecks in their grain, no matter how thoroughly yo finish them. However, on a general note, Yorkshire Grit is wax based, so before applying to an open grain, I would still be applying a sanding sealer. Some of the flecks that you're seeing are undoubtedly dried wax caught in the open pores of the wood.

Hi Phil. Thanks for that. I've been applying the sealer prior to micro meshing. Maybe I should be putting another coat on post sanding prior to YG as you say. I'm going to give the Melamine a go as per your tutorial tonight, as I really want some longevity to the finish on my pens now. Thanks again.

I had that problem a few times.

Hi Mark. Did you manage to resolve the issue or just switch finishes?

Very nice looking pens indeed Seb, I always finish with Melamine lacquer now, it’s quick and very effective.

Thanks a lot John. I'm definitely going to try the Melamine tonight.

 

[mallard]

Hi Seb,
I have had this problem as well in the past.
It happened to me if i tried a CA finish so in the end i gave up as i could never stop it happening.
What wood is it in the 1st picture ?

 

[Pierre]

I have tried over the last 15 years all sort of finishes from CA/BLO through tung oil, carnauba and grape oil mixed with beeswax (This latter good for food safe finishes on the inside of bowls) and all between, as various members of this forum and other forums have come up with their ideas, some I hate because they look plastic and others I hate because of my inability to emulate the consistent finish that others can achieve especially in the ridged forms. One finish I have been consistently happy with is 'wood' ie I no longer finish with anything special, I turn with very sharp tools so that I start on 600 grit after sanding sealer and then I turn using only micromesh to 12000 using the alternate sheets. I have found that the wood gleams at the finish, also the feel of the final product is of wood and not of wax. But in various experiments, if I try anything after that finish, it always screws up the final finish ie if I apply anything else that may possibly improve on 12000 grit it has never worked. Also keep in mind that if you apply sanding sealer at the outset, by the time you have worked your way down all of the grits, if you havent missed a few grits out then you have run out of sanding sealer unless you reapply it!! In fact each wood needs its own treatment since some retain their natural oils ie thuya, lignum vitae etc and others are dry and open so you need to apply the finish that matches your wood.

Wenge as in your first piece is not standard, (I think because it is open grain and because it has natural oils like thuya) , I have made jewellery boxes and pens in it, if you are going to finish it as you describe, try only taking it down to 600 grit, with sanding sealer, and then applying your Yorkshire grit.

This is an example of Wenge (at the time only one coat of tung oil applied) but which is only finished to 600 grit, any white specks are merely light refraction from the Oil and the customer could not find fault (happily since it was an order from the states).



Hope that helps

 

[pittswood]

Hi Seb,
I only use melamine, bees wax and friction polish. I also use the dreaded CA glue, mainly on pens made of the Yew tree.
Hope that helps mate.
Kelvin

 

[Seb]

Hi Seb,
I have had this problem as well in the past.
It happened to me if i tried a CA finish so in the end i gave up as i could never stop it happening.
What wood is it in the 1st picture ?

Hi Ian. What finish do you tend to use now then? The wood is Wenge.

I have tried over the last 15 years all sort of finishes from CA/BLO through tung oil, carnauba and grape oil mixed with beeswax (This latter good for food safe finishes on the inside of bowls) and all between, as various members of this forum and other forums have come up with their ideas, some I hate because they look plastic and others I hate because of my inability to emulate the consistent finish that others can achieve especially in the ridged forms. One finish I have been consistently happy with is 'wood' ie I no longer finish with anything special, I turn with very sharp tools so that I start on 600 grit after sanding sealer and then I turn using only micromesh to 12000 using the alternate sheets. I have found that the wood gleams at the finish, also the feel of the final product is of wood and not of wax. But in various experiments, if I try anything after that finish, it always screws up the final finish ie if I apply anything else that may possibly improve on 12000 grit it has never worked. Also keep in mind that if you apply sanding sealer at the outset, by the time you have worked your way down all of the grits, if you havent missed a few grits out then you have run out of sanding sealer unless you reapply it!! In fact each wood needs its own treatment since some retain their natural oils ie thuya, lignum vitae etc and others are dry and open so you need to apply the finish that matches your wood.

Wenge as in your first piece is not standard, (I think because it is open grain and because it has natural oils like thuya) , I have made jewellery boxes and pens in it, if you are going to finish it as you describe, try only taking it down to 600 grit, with sanding sealer, and then applying your Yorkshire grit.

This is an example of Wenge (at the time only one coat of tung oil applied) but which is only finished to 600 grit, any white specks are merely light refraction from the Oil and the customer could not find fault (happily since it was an order from the states).

View attachment 41704

Hope that helps

Hi Pierre. I think there is definitely merit in your comments about leaving the pen be with it's natural finish and just sanding. I personally love the look of my pens once they've had the 12000 MM and friction polish on them, but the problem is I've then seen some of those pens weeks down the line, and they look so dull and used. I think it depends on the wood though as you say, as I couldn't get a Padauk pen to look nice (finished to 12000, friction polish, and then wax), but 2 weeks later after being used every day, it's taken on a nice satin look from being handled and the finish is more uniform. I did my first Melamine last night on an Oak pen, and after the fourth coat, it had a load of ridges and what looked to be part of the kitchen roll in it. I took it back with sandpaper, and then put another 2 coats on, but didn't burnish so to speak. It was more of a wipe on and then wipe off evenly. The pen has equivalent shine to the ones I was doing previously but you can tell it's going to be so much more hard wearing. I've read some people burnish their melamine finished 24 hours later to bring the glossy look out, but I'm hesitant to mess with it.

Hi Seb,
I only use melamine, bees wax and friction polish. I also use the dreaded CA glue, mainly on pens made of the Yew tree.
Hope that helps mate.
Kelvin

Hi Kelvin. Thanks for the reply. Do you use Phil's exact method for the Melamine? Do you use friction polish separate to that when you are aiming for a more natural finish, or do you use them all together?

 

[wm460]

I had that problem a few times.

Hi Mark. Did you manage to resolve the issue or just switch finishes?

I have a number of blanks waiting to be rescued.

I would like to use melamine, but not available in Aust, I dont know what is the Aussie equivalent is.
I wish some kind person would be able to look at bunnings web site and tell me.

On bowls etc I have tried leaving them in the sun to melt the wax down, but found using a hot air gun very carefully more efficient, when wax melted soak up excess wax with paper towel.

Been meaning to post a pic of this bowl.

 

[Seb]

A little update, I'm now fully converted to Melamine Lacquer! I had a problem with my first attempt, as I ended up with ridges that I had to sand back. I suspect this was taking the burnishing part a little too far, i.e. to the point of heating the paper towel pad up causing the finish to drag (the high speed of my lathe wont help). I've now done a few more pens, and apply three coats by applying the melamine quickly in 5-6 passes, then I run over it with a fresh piece the same amount of times. I do this one after the other, then leave the lathe on for a few mins whilst I get the kit ready. I then apply a tiny bit of wax.

I do sand quite a bit higher than what's recommended as I think it gave a much better shine once finished.

Very happy with the finish.

Cheers Phil.

 

[Phil Dart]

Delighted you're getting to grips with it Seb. Try applying alternate coats with the lathe stopped (burnish it with the lathe running). That will also help to reduce radial marks.

 

[Seb]

Delighted you're getting to grips with it Seb. Try applying alternate coats with the lathe stopped (burnish it with the lathe running). That will also help to reduce radial marks.

I did just that tonight Phil, and whipped out a Purpleheart slimline. I applied moderate pressure when turning the lathe on and burnishing, so in total four coats (two on, two off, all burnished running). It certainly didn't leave any marks this time, and I think being quicker with the burnishing and not applying too much pressure helped. Then...I applied some wax after about 5 mins, and was left with the dreaded white marks again. I quickly put some Turners Retreat Diamond Coat on and it managed to hide it.

Safe to say I am completely put off using wax as a final top coat (especially Microcrystalline).

 

[Phil Dart]

The white marks were on the purpleheart - right?

 

[Seb]

The white marks were on the purpleheart - right?

That's right Phil. Stuck in it as they were when using the Yorkshire Grit, Polish, Wax finish. Obviously not as much as previously, as the lacquer will almost 'seal' the wood I would have thought? And the Diamond Coat pretty much brought it all out, or at least covered it.

 

[Phil Dart]

Have you got a close up of the finished pen? I appreciate you have already resolved the problem, but it would be handy to see how open the grain is. Purpleheart is usually pretty closed, so I'm struggling to think where the white is getting embedded. You might be better off switching to carnauba instead of microcrystaline

 

[Seb]

Have you got a close up of the finished pen? I appreciate you have already resolved the problem, but it would be handy to see how open the grain is. Purpleheart is usually pretty closed, so I'm struggling to think where the white is getting embedded. You might be better off switching to carnauba instead of microcrystaline

Here ya go Phil

 

[Phil Dart]

Yeah, that is really just the wax getting stuck in the pores isn't it. Nice finish on it though I think just moving to carnauba will solve the problem. Having said that. I've not tried Diamond Coat so I don't know how resilient it is. If it is, that seems like it might be a solution too. You need to handle and use the pen for a few days to see how it stands up to wear and fingerprints.