wm460
Grand Master
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2013
- Posts
- 23,113
- First Name
- Mark
My DSLR is 14 MP, my little pocket camera is 14MP, my phone is 23Mp 
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Do you need a proper Camera or SLR to get decent quality photos?
I used to have a 20D many moons ago, from what I remember, it should be perfectly good enough for getting photos good enough to post to websites, etsy, forums, etc. In fact I still have photos that I took with it which regularly sell as stock photos. I haven't tried a 7D (had a variety of the 5Ds), which would give you a slightly better picture quality, but I don't think it's necessary. A good lens will almost always be a better investment than a better camera, and I think you said you'd bought a Sigma 105? Try concentrating on your lighting first, and then getting a good exposure. Shoot in RAW + JPEG. Try spot metering mode, and meter with the pen in the very centre of the photo. Remember that any metering mode will try to give you mid grey, so you may need to use a little exposure compensation if your pen is lighter or darker than mid grey.
Once you've done that, you should end up with a decent photo, but it will need some post processing, which can take just as much work. What program, if any, are you using to post process your shots?
Feel free to send me one of your unedited files and I'll take a look if you want, I'll pm you my email address.
Hi William the trick here is to dowsize the pictures first but before saving the pictures sharpen them a bit with unsharp mask or whatever sharpening you have in the editor you use.
My own opinion is that all this talk about cameras is actually a bit of a red herring.
A camera needs to be able to take a crisp photo (lens and processor size), be able to adjust the white balance, and preferably be be capable of being held still. Lets face it, most modern cameras, (within the last 10 years anyway) can all do that, and most modern phones can do it better in many cases than a camera. You might not be able to mount a phone on a tripod, but resourceful people can easily find a way of holding it still. Beyond those requirements, there isn't much else you need, and so what you already own is probably already more than adequate.
The issue is not the camera, it's the lighting. Underlit subjects will always come out grey and dull, and over lit subjects will always come out blown out or washed out. The lighting is the most important thing to consider if you want a good photo, in my opinion.
I have spent (and wasted) pots of money over the years on light boxes, tents, lights, masks, backgrounds and so on, because I've succumbed to the advise offered by those who want to sell me those things. An ebay light tent with three lights all for the price of a sandwich, and look, you can take photos just like this......
Total bullshit.
The secret is, I have discovered, tons of lighting, and then some more, but all diffused, and the amount of light that the subject receives is then controlled by the distance you put it from the subject. Obvious I know, because that is exactly the ebay light tent approach. But what they don't tell you is that the amount of light that falls on the subject is not just a matter of how MUCH lighting you have, but how FAR it is from the subject. A 50cm light tent with three 35w daylight bulbs, as commonly seen on ebay and the like, is just simply inadequate and results in a grey photo just waiting to eat up hours of your life being edited in Photoshop or what ever it is you use. Those bulbs at 50cm from the subject, through the walls of a light tent, will only produce half the brightness at the subject as the same bulbs at 25cm distance. You can't reduce the distance because of the tent.
So, unless you can make good use of natural lighting (as in Derek's conservatory approach) you either have to forget about the light tent and put diffusers in front of your bulbs, then you can get them nice and close, or if you want to use a light tent, get some whopping great bulbs. Once you've got the brightness under control, you can then start to play with the angle and position on each light so that you can control shadows and highlights. It's easy to have too much or too little of either.
I use both methods. I have backgrounds and diffused lights, and I have light tents and big powerful lights. Each has its merits for different purposes, but in my opinion, for what it's worth, rather than spending money on an upgraded camera, you should always review your lighting first, and throw the money at that rather than a swanky camera.
These two photos illustrate my point I hope. Both in the same light tent. The first is with the bulbs that were supplied as a package deal with the tent.
The second is with bulbs twice as powerful. Both are completely unedited, straight from the camera. It's not the camera's fault that the first one is grey, it's the lighting. I am expecting the forum software to auto change the file sizes here. As I say, they're straight from the camera, so they might not be as sharp as if I'd re-sized them myself.
A camera needs to be able to take a crisp photo (lens and processor size), be able to adjust the white balance, and preferably be be capable of being held still. Lets face it, most modern cameras, (within the last 10 years anyway) can all do that, and most modern phones can do it better in many cases than a camera. You might not be able to mount a phone on a tripod, but resourceful people can easily find a way of holding it still. Beyond those requirements, there isn't much else you need, and so what you already own is probably already more than adequate.
The issue is not the camera, it's the lighting. Underlit subjects will always come out grey and dull, and over lit subjects will always come out blown out or washed out. The lighting is the most important thing to consider if you want a good photo, in my opinion.
I have spent (and wasted) pots of money over the years on light boxes, tents, lights, masks, backgrounds and so on, because I've succumbed to the advise offered by those who want to sell me those things. An ebay light tent with three lights all for the price of a sandwich, and look, you can take photos just like this......
Total bullshit.
The secret is, I have discovered, tons of lighting, and then some more, but all diffused, and the amount of light that the subject receives is then controlled by the distance you put it from the subject. Obvious I know, because that is exactly the ebay light tent approach. But what they don't tell you is that the amount of light that falls on the subject is not just a matter of how MUCH lighting you have, but how FAR it is from the subject. A 50cm light tent with three 35w daylight bulbs, as commonly seen on ebay and the like, is just simply inadequate and results in a grey photo just waiting to eat up hours of your life being edited in Photoshop or what ever it is you use. Those bulbs at 50cm from the subject, through the walls of a light tent, will only produce half the brightness at the subject as the same bulbs at 25cm distance. You can't reduce the distance because of the tent.
So, unless you can make good use of natural lighting (as in Derek's conservatory approach) you either have to forget about the light tent and put diffusers in front of your bulbs, then you can get them nice and close, or if you want to use a light tent, get some whopping great bulbs. Once you've got the brightness under control, you can then start to play with the angle and position on each light so that you can control shadows and highlights. It's easy to have too much or too little of either.
I use both methods. I have backgrounds and diffused lights, and I have light tents and big powerful lights. Each has its merits for different purposes, but in my opinion, for what it's worth, rather than spending money on an upgraded camera, you should always review your lighting first, and throw the money at that rather than a swanky camera.
These two photos illustrate my point I hope. Both in the same light tent. The first is with the bulbs that were supplied as a package deal with the tent.
The second is with bulbs twice as powerful. Both are completely unedited, straight from the camera. It's not the camera's fault that the first one is grey, it's the lighting. I am expecting the forum software to auto change the file sizes here. As I say, they're straight from the camera, so they might not be as sharp as if I'd re-sized them myself.
I sharpen in Lightroom and then export at about 1000px on the long side. Looks good on screen until it's uploaded then the quality goes!
What you say is certainly partly true Phil, however, some issues with lighting can be overcome with a decent camera and a bit of knowledge (or, possibly, some photo editing software). On the whole, it doesn't matter how much light you have, as long as it is enough for the exposure settings you are using - or alternatively, you can use exposure settings which can cope with the amount of light you are using. The problem of course is that there are always trade offs when trying to push exposure settings beyond the 'norm'...such as shutter speeds become too long to handhold, ISO settings are too high and give lots of noise, or apertures are too wide and give very little depth of field. A tripod will help with the shutter speed issue and a good camera will help with the ISO issue. If you can deal with either/both of those then the problems arising from a wide aperture should no longer be an issue.
You do have some light fall off in the edges of the top shot, but that is mostly down to the fact that the light is not diffused enough, rather than that it is not strong enough.
And, failing all of the above, it is always possible to use photo editing software to try and 'save' an otherwise dull photo - this is you first shot, cropped and adjusted using about 3 mouse clicks in Windows Photos Photo Editor. It's not perfect, but it's certainly better.
Mel, I'd like to discuss your comment regarding insufficient diffusion with you. I'd like to hear your thoughts, but it's a different issue really, so another time. Apart from that, I agree with everything you say - it is very often possible to overcome these issues by one or more trick or method, either in the exposure or in the editing software, or by a combination of several methods.
However, most of those methods require a knowledge beyond "meter, point and shoot". The only point I am making is that in the case of a poor photograph of a pen, the problem is usually because of lighting, which for whatever reason, has not been overcome by one of those tricks and methods. Therefore it is my contention that people may achieve more, and for less outlay, by reviewing their lighting setup as a first course of action, before throwing large sums of money at a new super-duper camera, which still requires knowledge of the tricks needed to overcome the poor lighting.
However, most of those methods require a knowledge beyond "meter, point and shoot". The only point I am making is that in the case of a poor photograph of a pen, the problem is usually because of lighting, which for whatever reason, has not been overcome by one of those tricks and methods. Therefore it is my contention that people may achieve more, and for less outlay, by reviewing their lighting setup as a first course of action, before throwing large sums of money at a new super-duper camera, which still requires knowledge of the tricks needed to overcome the poor lighting.
Yes, I'd definitely agree with you there, it is certainly generally cheaper to get better lighting than a better camera - especially if you can utilise a large window (north facing is generally preferred to south facing, for anyone looking for a suitable window).
Of course it also very much depends on what the photos are for - if they are just for uploading to a forum to show off your latest creations, then obviously picture quality is far less important than if you are uploading them to a website where you are relying on high resolution photos to sell items.
I must also take a moment to admit that I definitely don't practise what I preach! I'm pretty lazy when it comes to taking photos of my pens...I shoot on auto mode, but over exposed by one stop. I then just do pretty much the same adjustments that I did to your photo above. Taking the photos is one of my least favourite parts of pen making, and the less time it takes, the better!
Happy to discuss diffused light anytime!
In couldn't agree more Mel,
The only quality I need to see on here is to ensure we can see the item being shown, plight and poor focus hamper that but to be honest even with the best photographs the pen will look nothing like it does in the hand or naked eyes anyway.
Bucks
Fellow
This discussion is all getting a bit to much for me to get my head round at the moment 
I'll be sticking with my iPhone to take my photos as it's so quick & easy, but look into better lighting,
Am I right in thinking that these "light tents" might be better than the "light box" I have, as you can shine the light through the fabric of the tent & is this called diffusing? Sorry but I don't have a clue about photography & all the technical jargon.
If I am right with the above thinking has anyone got any recommendations to a reasonable light tent & lighting?
I'll be sticking with my iPhone to take my photos as it's so quick & easy, but look into better lighting,
Am I right in thinking that these "light tents" might be better than the "light box" I have, as you can shine the light through the fabric of the tent & is this called diffusing? Sorry but I don't have a clue about photography & all the technical jargon.
If I am right with the above thinking has anyone got any recommendations to a reasonable light tent & lighting?
This discussion is all getting a bit to much for me to get my head round at the moment
I'll be sticking with my iPhone to take my photos as it's so quick & easy, but look into better lighting,
Am I right in thinking that these "light tents" might be better than the "light box" I have, as you can shine the light through the fabric of the tent & is this called diffusing? Sorry but I don't have a clue about photography & all the technical jargon.
If I am right with the above thinking has anyone got any recommendations to a reasonable light tent & lighting?
Yes, you shine the light through the fabric of the tent to diffuse the lighting. This helps prevent harsh shadows. In our old house I used to take "product" shots in the conservatory on an overcast day. I've ordered a light tent not just for diffused lighting but also for the seamless backgrounds that come with it. This is the one I've ordered, you may be able to get a smaller one if you only want to use it for pens though.
Neewer(R) 32x32 inch/80x80 cm Photo Studio Shooting Tent: Amazon.co.uk: Camera & Photo
You could use it with natural lighting outdoors or use it with artificial lighting or flash indoors. If used indoors you'll need two or three light sources. I'll be experimenting with mine once it arrives but I need to make another pen soon as well!
OK, I didn't want to get into a technical discussion of diffused lighting, but here we go....very basically the lighting is diffuse when an object is evenly lit over a large area - that usually means from a fairly large light source, like a light panel, or from a light bulb, diffused through something else - like fabric. All the fabric is doing is taking a harsh (ie small) light and spreading it around evenly.
If the 'light box' you already have has a fairly large and even light source, then you may not find that a light tent offers much better results.
If the 'light box' you already have has a fairly large and even light source, then you may not find that a light tent offers much better results.
Bucks
Fellow
It's one of these Melanie, it's got a tiny strip light in the front which can be seen in the first picture, and on second thoughts we don't have much space to be setting up a light tent & numerous lights, so it would be quite handy if we could stick with this small light box & possibly upgrade the lighting somehow.
I suspect that the easiest way to improve the photos is with a bit of simple photo editing. You really just need a bit of extra contrast in the shots. I'm not sure what version of Windows you have (assuming you're on a PC, not a Mac), but if you open the photo on your pc, and then click once on the photo, do you get a menu in the top right with 'Edit' in it (or you can right click which brings down a drop down menu)?
If so, click 'edit'...once the editing screen opens, click on the magic wand type icon on the right where it says 'enhance your photo'. It will probably look terrible at this stage, but don't worry.
Now go up to where a tab says 'Adjust', and click that. Once in there, under 'Light' bring the slider over to the right until the photo looks better. You can also try bringing the clarity slider over to the right a little.
See if that gives you an acceptable photo.
If so, click 'edit'...once the editing screen opens, click on the magic wand type icon on the right where it says 'enhance your photo'. It will probably look terrible at this stage, but don't worry.
Now go up to where a tab says 'Adjust', and click that. Once in there, under 'Light' bring the slider over to the right until the photo looks better. You can also try bringing the clarity slider over to the right a little.
See if that gives you an acceptable photo.
Bucks
Fellow
Thanks for the info Melanie, I don't have a windows PC I have a Mac but I do all my photo editing on my iPad using a program called Pixelmator, I haven't really done any colour adjusting on my images (mainly cropping & retouching) but I'm sure that can be done in Pixelmator so will have a play when I get a bit of time.
Interesting. I do all my editing in LightRoom on my Mac as I shoot in RAW. May have to give Pixelmator a try though.
OK, well try increasing contrast and lightening highlights - if it will allow.
To be honest, I'd stick with Lightroom unless you're really averse to it - it has one of the most powerful processing engines available, I doubt anything available on a tablet will beat it.
Bucks
Fellow
Bucks
Fellow
Thanks Melanie, I'll give it a try 