Penturners get no respect

[Walter]

In the recent pricing thread I commented on the subject of people who come up to you at sales venues and say something like "I (or my grandad) could make one of those for half the price you are charging. In many cases they probably could, I know many grandads who are better turners than me. I also read a thread today on a Facebook forum where someone was complaining about people who say "They are only kit pens" or words to that effect. In many cases they are "only kit pens" aren't they? All we are doing is drilling a hole, gluing in a tube and turning a cylinder then finishing and assembling. Not exactly rocket science. How many proud parents or grandparents have posted pictures of their kids or grandkids work that looks just as good as some of ours? I was going to write a lengthy post explaining that whilst both these things may be true there is much more to pen making than that but something jogged my memory and I remembered this article by Kurt Hertzog which says what I was going to say but in greater depth and much more eloquently. I think it makes interesting reading.

Here is a link:

http://kurthertzog.com/articles/wtd43penmakingcolumn25red.pdf

 

[Vic Perrin]

Interesting read Walter and a lot of food for thought

 

[Dalboy]

Started to read it and ended up going crossed eyed will print it out and have a good read later. As for many people saying I could make that cheaper unless they already have the equipment then no way can they make it cheaper without buying a lathe and everything involved, well that is my answer to them.
From the little I have read all I can say is that I put as much care and attention to a pen that I do with many of my turnings

 

[woodhacker]

Thats a very good piece Walter it gives plenty to chew over.

 

[rayf6604]

I've heard a few excuses for not buying a pen in my short time doing fairs, but I've never heard anyone say they could make them cheaper. I've had a handful of other turners stop and talk and all have been complimentary. I have to agree with Derek, the cost of setting up to make pens alone is in the hundreds, however Walter, you are right in that making kit pens isn't difficult but does require a certain acumen and level of skill to ensure the material isn't over turned or left proud of the fittings, not to mention finished satisfactorily

 

[Phil Dart]

I would say that pen turners get less than little of no respect in some quarters. Try telling the RPT you turn pens for a living - in other words that you are a professional turner who happens to turn pens more than bowls or staircase spindles, and watch their reaction. (Don't ask me how I know this!!)

I would say that Kurt has it right when he asks "is respect that important"? Well, self-respect is but speaking purely for myself, I'm not too fussed about the opinion of other turners. I'm sure my view might be different if I made pens for pure enjoyment, as many members here do, who have my utmost respect, in many cases more so than a lot of bowl makers, spindle turners and "wood artists" whom I could name. But I need to put food on the table, therefore as a turner I specialise in areas where the money is. I was a professional turner long before I evolved into pen making but if "proper" turners consider me an inferior being then at least I have the satisfaction of knowing that I can afford a healthy diet and that my car loan is paid off, mainly thanks to pens.

 

[Penpal]

I noted recently an ad for a Woodturning Cruise coming up in a year or so with nine noted Turners on board. Three of them notably Benoit Averly, Richard Raffan, and Michael Hosaluk I have met and enjoyed seminars up to three days live in etc. Over the many years I have observed their attitude to pen turners.

Richard, a member of my Woodturning Guild where I am A life member I know really well. He never loses an opportunity with a strange smile saying I will die never having turned a pen. The other two are most accomodating. I know where I would spend my time during the cruise.

One time Richard came to me with cap in hand Peter could you help me with my complex dust extraction. He had respect for me as a sparky and after a couple of hours the problem emerged fixed forever. He then said while your here you have not seen my sales room lately, we wandered in . I was totally impressed by a bowl with gold leaf and dozens of fine lines around it, he said do you like it? most people don,t. I said sure I think it is beautiful, then he said its yours. Now this man can be respectful in one field but not in another, one...... pens he is not interested. He is an infatiguable worker in the Guild first there last to leave on projects. Exhibitions etc, really a nice guy. There is room among woodworkers for preferences.

For myself my Church members see a new pen and I hear the whispers he doesnt sell them you have to be real lucky to get one of those.

I often say THE POWER OF A PEN in my experience it has taken me places and gained huge rewards. I like to share ,why I am a member on this and other forums concentrating on grain , form that please me. With so many years experience of Competitions I have entered to support. Now this forum is gaining participation I will step down and observe.

My latest grand experience with gift pens yielded four hundred dollars of a special hard to get product gratis.

Just yesterday from 1,500 miles away I ordered a heap of unique timbers, my blanks do not fall into my blank room they are researched and bought a big part of the satisfaction.

With regard to recognition one of the latest VC winners in Australia is a Corporal, some say only a Corporal.

Peter.

 

[Lons]

Thanks for posting Walter, an interesting read.

Before I'd read half the first page I was already asking myself why the question had been asked as personally I don't really care whether I get respect or not as long as I am happy that I am improving and enjoying what I do, I'm motivated to keep it going otherwise I'd give up and do something more satisfying. It would be different of course if I needed to make a living but even then I think it would be only customers I would require respect from rather than from my peers.

The very last sentence of his article does it for me.

 

[AllenN]

A very interesting read Walter, thank you for providing the link. Ultimately for someone like me who is not trying to make a living the test is am I happy with the piece. I don't suppose I will ever be completly satisfied with a piece because I feel I can always do better. That said I hope my standards are continuing to rise and if a piece meets those standards then I can be happy with it. Critisism of peers forms a key part of setting that standard. Critisism by 'customers' obviously forms a part, especially if one is selling the product, but people who's critisism is confined to I could make it cheaper doesn't really carry much weight. I am reminded of the Ruskin quote we see on here frequently.
I can see that once the basic skills have been developed, putting creativity into a pen can be a real challenge. I certainly feel that, and I am not claiming to have got much beyond the basic skills stage myself. When I see some of the pieces people show on here and some of the work displayed in the article I am in awe. For those who are doing this for a living I can see that repeated application of basic skills to a high standard is key, and there is nothing wrong with that. That by the way is why I won't sell my pens 'cheaply' since to do so would be to undercut those who are trying to put bread on the table.

 

[Sgreen]

I don't think anyone who as never turned a pen is not in a position to say its easy or hard. I, like everyone on here, it very challenging and rewarding.

I know we all think this: For me a pen starts long before it gets to the lathe. Picking the right kit to match a blank. deciding the shape or whether or not to customise a standard kit. Finally what finish to put on. Doing this and making a beautiful pen once is lucky, doing it time after time is a skill in own right.

 

[Walter]

The very last sentence of his article does it for me.

Yes, I agree, you can't argue with that really.

 

[nimrod]

I also agree with the last sentence. When I was in my twenties I used do a lot of photography mainly black and white, which I used process myself. I would enter competitions at local and national level with some success, I then started to experiment with dyes, bleaches and inks to achieve different effects, the comments I used to get usually started with is this real photography at first I used to get quite upset with the comments usually from traditionalists who had no idea of the processes involved in producing the finished print, then I realised did it really bother what they thought, they had the right to express their opinion,
I enjoyed making the print and liked finished product and to me that was what really mattered.

Robin

 

[Winemaker]

Interesting read I have a few people say to me that my pens are too expensive (10.00) . I tell them that its not just a pen its a pen that has been made with love of the wood and is being bought with love and given with love as a gift to a special person that will go on giving every time it used. Still can't sell them

 

[fingwe]

Interesting read I have a few people say to me that my pens are too expensive (10.00) .

I wonder whether, if you put your pens up to £100, you'd still get the same response? By pricing them at £10, you're competing with cheap mass produced pens, which will mostly be cheaper than yours, and so people may view your pens as too expensive.

If you priced them higher, you're setting them out as hand crafted, luxury items, which people will be more likely to attach value to, and want. You may have people say 'they're too expensive for me', which is different to people saying that they're too expensive for for what they are.

 

[Winemaker]

If you priced them higher, you're setting them out as hand crafted, luxury items, which people will be more likely to attach value to, and want. You may have people say 'they're too expensive for me', which is different to people saying that they're too expensive for for what they are.[/QUOTE]

I live in Cornwall beautiful place no money , they would never pay that price it would give them a Heart attack

 

[Woodturning exchef]

As I have spent more than half my life as a chef I am used to people coming in to my restaurants and telling me that they could cook the same meal at a fraction of the cost, and it is true. However, when you buy products produced by a third party, wether food or wooden pens, customers have to understand the cost and time the third party has had to cover to produce it. With pens it is the electric for the lathe, sandpaper, ground rent and if possible a little for the turner. Also they are pen kits, but how much can go wrong from the point you start to drill the holes for the tubes? Uneven drill angle, wrong size hole, ripping the wood to bits on the lathe, carving too low as to not allow a full range of sandpaper grits before you run out of wood covering the brass tubes. Next time someone tells,you they could do it for a fraction of the price, give them the websites address and tell the to get going! How about the cost you need to lay out so you have the equipment to turn pens, brushes, mandrells, lathe, chisels, sharpening system, sandpaper, drill, drill bits and finishing wax, it's not cheap. They go to fairs to buy what they can not produce or do not have time to produce. If you want to see over pricing at its best have a look at Linley's in Pimlico they have a web page that will make your eyes water!

 

[fingwe]

I live in Cornwall beautiful place no money , they would never pay that price it would give them a Heart attack

I'm not suggesting that you charge £100 for them, I'm just trying to illustrate how you can can alter something's perceived value. :wink:

I live in one of the poorest areas of England (the North East), so I know what you mean about no money locally. Cornwall has a good influx of tourists every year - is there no way you could tap into that market?

 

[fingwe]

Next time someone tells,you they could do it for a fraction of the price, give them the websites address and tell the to get going!

I'd ask them if they wanted to sell to me wholesale? I bet they wouldn't be willing to work for that price....:wink:

 

[Phil Dart]

By pricing them at £10, you're competing with cheap mass produced pens, which will mostly be cheaper than yours, and so people may view your pens as too expensive.

If you priced them higher, you're setting them out as hand crafted, luxury items, which people will be more likely to attach value to, and want. You may have people say 'they're too expensive for me', which is different to people saying that they're too expensive for for what they are.

I don't believe I have ever read a better explanation in so few words, of the point I have been unsuccessfully been trying to get across, every time the thorny issue of pricing is raised.

Tom, I beg to differ - there is plenty of money in Cornwall. My wife is Cornish and we visit relatives there often. It's true there is a large disparity between the pay packets of the employed and the employers, the tenants and the landed, but the employers and the landed are aplenty, not even including the several million tourists who visit each year. Maybe you are just looking for it in the wrong way, and if you adopted Melanie's advice, even just for one Fair, you might find you get a different result by the time you set down your stall. I don't notice many cheap things in the marquee on Truro's Lemon Quay when I visit, but I do notice the same stall holders there time after time, coming back for more.

 

[fingwe]

I often think much of the problem is that makers often get caught in the trap of pricing something in line with what they'd be prepared to pay for it themselves. I charge far more for a calligraphy pen than I'd ever be prepared to pay (or could afford) for one myself. At first I was worried whether people would buy them, but I soon realised that there were people out there who can afford them, who desire them, and who are prepared to pay for them.