Problems with grain turning oak pens - any advice?

[MrJoshua]

Hi guys

I've made a couple of oak pens as I've got some I wanted to try with and my technique is not right somehow when turning/smoothing these as I and up with a lot of grooves in the final surface as if fibres are being pulled out, even when I've got the overall surface glassy smooth (using micro mesh etc).

The problem apart from anything else that this causes me is that these grooves in the grain get filled when I'm sanding with any residue from the paper/cloth and end up as dark unnatural looking bits on the surface. I can use a brass brush to clean them out but then left with empty grooves that are obvious and a dark 'pore' (for want of a better word) at the end of each one, possibly where the missing fibre has come through or something?

Is this happening because I'm being too hasty/rapid on turning the wood, and should stop earlier with the chisels before starting with the sanding stages perhaps?

It hasn't happened on other woods I've turned, but granted I don't have masses of experience.

Appreciate any input on this - I really want to be able to get them looking great without this happening.

Much obliged!! :)

 

[Woody]

It sounds like blunt tools or your trying to remove to much wood in each pass so you end up tearing the wood and not cutting it

 

[paulm]

As Woody says. You could give it a layer of super thin ca before your final cut/sanding.

 

[Shaver]

Without seeing the wood I can't say if it is tool marks or not, but it is possible that you are talking about the natural pores in Oak. Oak is quite an open grain timber similar to Ash and it is possible it is the open grain you are finding is filling up with the sanding slurry. If you want a glass smooth surface on Oak you do have to fill the grain first.

Hope this helps a bit.

 

[Penpal]

Jim there are so many so called Oaks some easy some damn hard to finish my tip is to stop turning a little earlier and go through the grades of paper avoiding black emery fine papers that stain.

Peter.

 

[Bill Mooney]

As Woody says, sharp tools, light passes. As Paul says, a coat of super thin ca then sand, this should fill the grain & give a smooth finish.
Just a thought. In the sixties we tried to make Formica look like wood. Now we try to get our wood to look & feel like Formica.

 

[MrJoshua]

Thanks guys - appreciate the input from you all.

Some follow up comments/replies:
Yes my turning tools I'm afraid are crap. They're 'Am Tech' which is one of those generic brands where you see the same cheap tat parading as various brands.
I knew when I bought them they would be pretty rough, but 1) I just wanted something cheap to get stuck in with, and 2) I always believe that you can't fully appreciate the benefit or what you really get from decent tools if you haven't first done the same job with cheap ones. I don't mean every single job you do but I'm sure you get the idea. Which is why I'm very grateful that I'm fortunate enough to have pretty decent tools for the most part, just not for wood turning. Yet.

I've already ordered a 'Faithfull' 20mm roughing chisel which is the first upgrade. I know many people state them as bad tools too but nonetheless it'll be a big improvement over what I currently use! :D

Yes I think I am using the chisels too far instead of starting the sanding phase sooner. I'm awaiting more supplies of sanding strips on rolls, instead of the little bits I'm trying to currently use. Will make life a lot easier once I have them.
I think some staining has happened from the emery/sandpaper. Not sure as well if the meshes when I use them and they touch the mandrel bushes might be dragging tiny bits of stain from the bush metal?

Finally, I have got some sanding sealer which I understood was meant to act as a sort of filler before sanding for filling in bits like this but I suspect I have the wrong product as it doesn't really seem to work that well.
This is the stuff I bought (except it came with a screw cap). Any thoughts on this, ie is there a favoured type/brand for a sealer/filler product?

Either way, I'm going to try some bits of scrap and try to get them how I want finished, instead of stupidly actually making fully done pens and then not being happy after the fact!!!
Every day's a schoolday eh!

 

[Dalboy]

Another little thing to take into concideration is that if you are making the blank so that the middle is thicker than the two end is when cutting start from the middle and work to the ends, again as already been said sharp tools.

 

[MrJoshua]

Thanks for the tip - will do!

These are standard 'slimline' twist pens, so they're approx 8.6mm diameter all the way along without any taper as such (well, that's how I've done them anyway to be flush with the fittings).

 

[Phil Dart]

Jim - a huge proportion of my pen output is oak, and both Shaver and Bill Mooney have it right.

As Bill said, we spend our time trying to get super smooth finishes, but as Shaver said, oak is an open grained timber. The two facts do not fit well together. However, it can be achieved, bit do not blame your tools, it is probably not their fault, its just a question of adjusting your working practice.

If you want a super smooth finish, firstly do your initial sanding with the lathe running, using coarsest grade you need to, which is probably going to be 120 until you get a bit more experience. Stop the lathe and using the same grade, sand with the grain until you have removed all of the radial marks left from the rotational sanding. Apply diluted sanding sealer (about 2 parts sealer to one part thinners is a good open mix) wipe it off and allow to dry for a few seconds. Sand with next grade - lathe running. Apply sanding sealer. Sand with next grade - with the grain, lathe stopped. Apply sanding sealer. And so it goes on. I find it only necessary to sand oak to 600 grit, but do your last sanding with the grain but without any sealer applied.

You should now have a super smooth finish, without any discernible remaining traces of sealer, ready to take your chosen finish. BUT, and this is the difference between success and failure with oak, the very last thing you should do before applying your finish, is with the lathe stopped, give the blank a vigorous rub along the grain with a tack cloth, which will remove the black marks you mentioned which stick in the grain. Hey presto.

For myself, I take the attitude that smoothness of oak is directly proportional to effort involved, which is directly proportional to price of pen. Therefore, my slimlines don't generally get such elongated treatment, but my high priced fountain pens do. I quite like the open grain effect on some pens anyway, and as it turns out, so do my customers. Each to his own eh? But that's how to do it if you want a smooth surface and still retain flexibility for the final finish.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[MrJoshua]

Thanks Beaufort for the detailed explanation/steps - all makes perfect sense and I have already done a few pieces where I used CA to a good effect with a similar technique of continually making it more and more fine.

I have been sanding both with the lathe turning and as you say with it off to remove the radial marks, going along the grain. I think I'm being too heavy handed partly.
Interesting point though about the oak being an open grain wood. I hadn't thought in this respect that it might be better to have it like that.

Part of the reason is that a guy has asked me to make 5 oak pens basically the same as a photo he saw of an early one I'd done (my first one actually). So as I was turning and finishing them I thought, he's only seen the pic and won't realise that the pen in question had a texture to it because of the grain and might not want that. But really I should of course clarify this with him first.
So I'll do one of each maybe and let him see which he prefers, then go with that.

 

[Phil Dart]

If I had received the request, I have to say I wouldn't be bothering to check if he wants it smooth or grainy. As you say, he's only seen a photo anyway, and you will be making a rod for your own back. If they are slimlines, which I think you said they are, he's gonna get grainy from me and that's that. That's not just me being difficult, there is a practical consideration too, which is this. ...

Take a piece of cardboard and score it with a sharp knife. Bend the card and the score mark will widen to become a gap. The more you bend it, ie, the tighter the radius, the wider the gap will appear to be. Now consider a tiny piece of oak only 8mm or so in diameter. I know you're not bending it, but none the less, the open-ness of the grain is going to be more apparent than it is on say a substantial fat fountain pen. Therefore, as far as oak is concerned, it is much, much more difficult to get a smooth surface on a thinner pen than it is on a fatter one, and in fact, always of course depending on the particular piece of oak on the lathe, on a slimline you would possibly be struggling to achieve it.

My advise to you, take it or leave it, is to accept that oak is what it is. You will probably find that some will turn out smoother than others in any case, and vice versa, because the character of each blank is bound to differ slightly.

 

[Baldy]

Was going to chime in but Phil has explained perfectly the process I have come upon recently. The more time and effort the better the finish I have found to be capable of.. more so with the open grain likes of oak..

 

[MrJoshua]

That's a very good point thanks. I certainly had no intention of doing a glossy CA job with these due to the time factor, but I hadn't thought about it in the context you describe in respect of the radius and size vs the grooves in the grain etc.

Here's a pic or two where I've experimented on what I consider for the most part to be a non usable pen, to see if I can rectify it. I'd added a couple of layers of undiluted sanding sealer last night, and was going to to try to get it sanded smooth retrospectively.

Not great as you can see.

Might be tricky to do, but I'm happy to try to resolve the problems with it since it's practise/learning/experience for me. And at least where I've cocked stuff up it's a good learn for the future!! It's a fun hobby for me currently rather than anything serious (which I can't pretend to be with limited experience). What I've found now anyway is the layer of sanding sealer can actually be easily scraped with a fingernail, so it's clear that it has to be sanded back to the wood to prevent it coming off too easy, so it's only actually filling the grains like I intended.


The other issue with this particular pen (can't even recall how I did it now) but I managed to scratch the bloody tip. I think I touched it with mesh briefly by accident when I had it turning to smooth in the drill press (ie instead of completely trying to take it apart again.

Is there any sort of cunning technique to removing the twist mech from one of these once it's pressed in? I'm assuming it's probably going to trash the pen if I try, but no harm in asking in case there's actually an easy way! They're not glued, just pressed.
Obviously the upper barrel comes off, and I can probably pop the cap & clip back out of it by tamping it on a thin punch.

 

[MrJoshua]

Gotta say as well, I'm really liking this forum so far gents. Early days for me on here but so many people are quick to offer useful input to a newb like me, without anyone telling me to go and use the search button, or tutting at my mistakes etc.
Just how a forum should be IMO (I have a couple I run and it's not always an easy thing to keep them how you want them to be, i.e. like this).

 

[paulm]

Jim, where in the country are you? I'm sure there would be somebody close that could show you.

 

[Phil Dart]

Jim - the trick with sanding sealer on oak is to dilute it. about 2:1 - use it neat and it does have a tendency to scratch off. Dilute it, apply with a brush, (lathe stopped) then rub it in with some tissue, which at the same time wipes it off. That way it absorbs more in to the wood and binds with it, rather than just sitting on the surface.

Those black marks you've got at both ends of your barrels are transfer of metal from your bushings in to the grain. Better surface finish will help eliminate it in the first instance, but as I said earlier, use a tack cloth (lathe stopped) after your final sand, which will get rid of the rest of it.
Lots of people here have methods and opinions on how to stop transfer from bushings, but short of turning between centres (which is tomorrow's lesson) they mostly require some form of hardware alteration part way through, and for me, with one eye on the clock, its never going to happen. Use a tack cloth, the turner's best friend and you'll be sorted. (which reminds me, I need to get some more)

 

[MrJoshua]

Don't have any tack cloths I must admit so I'll get that taken care of!
Sorry to be dense but ratio wise to you mean 2:1 sealer:water or the other way round?

I don't mind the idea of turning between centres actually, as I normally use calipers to measure the thickness of the wood with increasing frequency as I get closer to it being the right size, so I don't mind not using bushings as a thickness guide as such. Isn't there a risk turning on centres that you flare out the brass tube end though? Ie to get enough purchase on the blank/tube for roughing etc can you compress up the tailstock enough without risking that happening?

Jim, where in the country are you? I'm sure there would be somebody close that could show you.

With anything specific or just pens in general? I'm on the Isle of Man. I've a colleague at work that's very helpful with advice, but it's not too practical to go and visit his workshop (assuming he was happy enough to share his time like that) due to child arrangements, and where he lives etc etc. He's very good at his stuff though!!

 

[Phil Dart]

Water????? Whaoo!! Hang on a minute Jim. What sanding sealer are you using?

 

[Buckeye]

That's a very good point thanks. I certainly had no intention of doing a glossy CA job with these due to the time factor, but I hadn't thought about it in the context you describe in respect of the radius and size vs the grooves in the grain etc.

Here's a pic or two where I've experimented on what I consider for the most part to be a non usable pen, to see if I can rectify it. I'd added a couple of layers of undiluted sanding sealer last night, and was going to to try to get it sanded smooth retrospectively.

Not great as you can see.

Might be tricky to do, but I'm happy to try to resolve the problems with it since it's practise/learning/experience for me. And at least where I've cocked stuff up it's a good learn for the future!! It's a fun hobby for me currently rather than anything serious (which I can't pretend to be with limited experience). What I've found now anyway is the layer of sanding sealer can actually be easily scraped with a fingernail, so it's clear that it has to be sanded back to the wood to prevent it coming off too easy, so it's only actually filling the grains like I intended.


The other issue with this particular pen (can't even recall how I did it now) but I managed to scratch the bloody tip. I think I touched it with mesh briefly by accident when I had it turning to smooth in the drill press (ie instead of completely trying to take it apart again.

Is there any sort of cunning technique to removing the twist mech from one of these once it's pressed in? I'm assuming it's probably going to trash the pen if I try, but no harm in asking in case there's actually an easy way! They're not glued, just pressed.
Obviously the upper barrel comes off, and I can probably pop the cap & clip back out of it by tamping it on a thin punch.

You should get yourself a set of transfer punches and you will be able to use them to dismantle almost every pen kit on the market. I think there is a tutorial on dismantling a pen, on the forum, it's the bottom tutorial here.

Peter