Bushing rip off??

[Gregory Hardy]

My printing press is bigger than your printing press and mine works.

I certainly don't want to interfere with international relations or anything of that sort, and I don't want to seem disloyal to my own countrymen, but I can say that I only own one of the two books (and I hope Barry isn't reading)!

 

[APH]

The simple fact is that pen kit manufacturers are no more likely to standardise on a few standard sizes of tube than car makers are to simplify the wheel sizes of cars so there are only three or four sizes of tyres needed.

The wheel analogy isn't appropriate as car wheels are determined by the performance and characteristics of the vehicle, not just cosmetics.

Even if they standardised tube sizes then the varying external sizes of components would mean that various sized bushes would still be needed.

You've missed the idea. A set of bushes in 1mm increments (say 9>16) that fit directly on a standard mandrel and a second set of inserts for the more limited tube range (9/11/12). Those figures would cover most kits currently available.

Would it really be too onerous on designers to conform to part sizes in integers (1mm increments) ?
Do PSI really need to make their pens so subtly different that the bush diameter varies by just .3mm ? Would anyone notice if they used common sizes ? no.
On invisible tubes why do we need some having an internal diameter of 8.76mm and another at 9.22mm ? Just daft.

This type of restriction would prevent manufacturers from producing the wide variety of kit designs we currently enjoy.

Why ? it would only be a case of conforming to some specific dimensions. It may lead to a greater diversity if it opened 'pick and mix' options and people would be more ready to try different kits if it didn't have to involve buying yet another set of bushes that might only get used once.

It won't happen, but it could and be a benefit to everyone.

 

[Lons]

I have both books .... and Barry's is now falling apart I've gone through it that much .... the other one is still in it's wrapper ....

That's because you know the wrapped one will eventually be worth a fortune if you keep it pristine. Get him to sign it and you can retire to Monaco on the proceeds.

 

[Phil Dart]

You make your points well Paul, although I don't necessarily agree with them I'm afraid.

The vehicle I owned before my current one for instance, was offered with a choice of two sizes of wheel, even though the rest of the vehicle would be identical irrespective of the wheel size - wheel sizes are not necessarily to do with characteristics and performance, sometimes it's IS purely cosmetic.

Tube sizes do not always need to be peculiar - I agree. Not always, just sometimes. If you are trying to design a thin fountain pen for instance, because the market wants a thin fountain pen, are you going to limit yourself to standard increments of 1mm? You don't actually need a 10mm tube - you can shave a bit off it, but you can't use a 9mm tube because by the time a component is pressed in, you can't get the converter in and out.

Even if tubes did all conform to some sort of standardisation, it achieves precisely nothing. If Kit A has 12mm tube, does that mean that Kit B, which also has a 12mm tube has to have the same component diameters as Kit A? Because that's the only way you will achieve an economy of bushes. Pen designs vary in their overall component diameters and designs, in order to offer choice. There is no way on earth that either the manufacturers or the pen turners would want it any other way - because otherwise it would do exactly what Walter said, which would be to limit choice, and would effectively take the pen kit industry back 20 years or more.

All the while the market wants a wide choice of pen kits, then we will all need the appropriate bushes, or we must all learn to turn between centres. If we want a utilitarian approach to choice, then yes, standardisation is possible.

Can you imagine the threads on this Forum?

"See my latest pen? It's Pen Kit A in sapele, finished with government issue varnish."

"Oooh, nice fit and finish mate - it looks a bit like the Pen Kit B that I made the other day."

 

[silver]

[MENTION=165]silver[/MENTION] does that mean instead of the country being in a stated we then become a state

Always been called the 53rd state..

 

[silver]

The problem I have is when you buy a kit and then can't find the bushings anywhere, even the site that sold you the kit doesn't stock them. Bought a Shotgun Pen Kit as a gift for a shooting friend and can't find the bushes. Anyone tried making some out of acrylic offcuts with a spare 7mm tube on a mandrel? Think this might be my only option other than searching the web for sites in the USA and then pay 3 times what I paid for the Kit

I think the point here [MENTION=929]Phil5th[/MENTION] is don't buy the kits from them if they can't supply the bushes. I know I wouldn't.

But have brought "end of line" kits from suppliers that don't support the kit anymore and then made my own bushes.

You can make them out of anything, they don't need to be made out of metal. Or turn between centres as an alternative..

Bushes are an addition that really follows the motor vehicle, once we have them we feel that we can't really do anything without them..

A couple of points also I have just remembered.. manufacturers will change tubes and fittings as and when they like, one JR Gent kit might be the same today But buy the same kit in a years time and they may not be the same, even from the same supplier.
Also You will find that bushes for slimlines are all different, yet they are made for slimline kits. yes, it's down to the manufacturer making his bushes to suit his kit.

 

[Penpal]

On one of my benches is a pile of instructions to assemble pens ,heaps of sheets of them everyone saying do this then that in this order. Well the brass parts all fit into and the meat ie the finished timber or acrylic should meet together at that size. Always check the bushes,they should fit snug in the brass. Now if they are the right size outside when you turn the blank it will be almost level with the shoulders on the bushes. Thats why there are bushes.

!. they support the blank on the mandrel.
2. They enable the pen to be made.
3. there are other methods.

Now comes the crunch,meticulous labelling of the containers for bushes if you want an easy flow of production.

Every kit has a need,so think carefully when you buy different kits.

Peter.

 

[APH]

The vehicle I owned before my current one for instance, was offered with a choice of two sizes of wheel, even though the rest of the vehicle would be identical irrespective of the wheel size - wheel sizes are not necessarily to do with characteristics and performance, sometimes it's IS purely cosmetic.

Except that differing wheel sizes give different driving characteristics. Larger wheel diameter > lower profile tyre > better handling due to less side wall movement, but worse ride due to the stiffer side wall.
Some drivers might think it just cosmetic, but it's not.
Just a poor analogy for this discussion. Let's stay on topic eh ?

If you are trying to design a thin fountain pen for instance, because the market wants a thin fountain pen, are you going to limit yourself to standard increments of 1mm? You don't actually need a 10mm tube - you can shave a bit off it, but you can't use a 9mm tube because by the time a component is pressed in, you can't get the converter in and out.

Is that fraction of a millimeter really that important when all the other factors are taken into consideration ? tolerances for manufacture, drilling, gluing etc. I can't see that myself.

Even if tubes did all conform to some sort of standardisation, it achieves precisely nothing. If Kit A has 12mm tube, does that mean that Kit B, which also has a 12mm tube has to have the same component diameters as Kit A? Because that's the only way you will achieve an economy of bushes.

You missed the point too. The idea is to have a bush kit, maybe as many as 36 individual simple and cheap components, but that's all you ever need for any combination of tube and component as long as designers can accept the slight compromise of working to fixed 1mm increments of diameter of a part.

 

[Lons]

The bottom line really is that no-one actually "needs" bushes to turn a pen. Yes it can be easier but it can also lead a beginner to undersize the blank by turning down to the bushes and not allowing for sanding, it's also true that it's easy to catch them with a tool and sanding can reduce the size of the bushes as well as the dust discolouring the blank.

If you want bushes but don't want to pay for them it's quick and easy to knock some up out of deralin, perspex, corian or even offcuts of acrylic blanks, no need for tubes just drill out the same dia as your mandrel and while about it turn a few cones to use when sanding and polishing.

I have several sets of bushes I bought in the early days but wouldn't do it now unless I needed to set up a production run and short of time. It's nearly as quick to turn between centres using calipers.

In real terms anyway if you buy bushes for £4 0r £5 and get 20 or 30 pens out of it then IMO that's not extortionate. I doubt Phil or Dan are going to get rich selling bushes!

BTW I can't agree with the wheel size argument Paul, I recently changed my car, a 6 week old demo with 20" wheels but it could just as easily have come with 18" or 19". Yes the characteristics would be slightly different with an identical suspension set up but so would it be with different tyres. Mine has all season but tyres from different manufacturers all all different and are much more important to handling than wheel size. However as you said it's a poor analogy.

 

[Penpal]

I try to undercut bushes on the end that faces the blank to avoid cutting them and adhesion of finishes to the bushes. Just a 1/4 inch so as to keep the bush size for reference, calipers forever,bushes whenever.

Peter.

 

[Phil Dart]

Is that fraction of a millimeter really that important when all the other factors are taken into consideration ? tolerances for manufacture, drilling, gluing etc. I can't see that myself.

Yes, it is important. Take a standard Sierra for instance, Physical tube size of about 10.4 give or take a bit, depending on the manufacturer. Component diameter 12. A 10mm tube would equate to not enough no room for the ill conceived mechanism and the way it's built up from the nib section. An 11mm tube would equate to a blank thickness of 0.35 all round, after having allowed for the drill size to accommodate the tube, which of course will be greater than 11. As it is, the blank thickness, after drilling is only 0.65mm, which is already thin, so to effectively halve that just so people can standardise their bushes would mean that the Sierra would be nonviable or would have to become fatter - possibly the best selling single tube pen kit on the planet.

I learned a long time ago in a previous career that 1mm is as vast as an ocean in relative terms. The design of pen kits, by any manufacturer worth their salt, is finessed in increments of 0.01mm - that's half a thousandth of an inch, not 1mm, which is as good as a chasm.

You missed the point too. The idea is to have a bush kit, maybe as many as 36 individual simple and cheap components, but that's all you ever need for any combination of tube and component as long as designers can accept the slight compromise of working to fixed 1mm increments of diameter of a part.

It's a thought - as sort of Woolworths Pick n Mix approach. You and I have discussed this by email before now, have we not? Are you the same Paul?

 

[APH]

BTW I can't agree with the wheel size argument Paul, I recently changed my car, a 6 week old demo with 20" wheels but it could just as easily have come with 18" or 19".

Actually this points out why it might be a good analogy. Car manufacturers stick to standard sizes to ensure the buyers can get tyres easily. You don't find BMW or VW specifying a 16.75" or 15.3"wheel diameter, they stick to the standard sizes available.
The only manufacturers bold enough to break that standard are the outrageously expensive niche makers like Lamborghini, Bugatti and Bentley. The customers for these car don't worry so much about paying highly for exclusivity.

 

[APH]

Yes, it is important. Take a standard Sierra for instance, .......... the Sierra would be nonviable or would have to become fatter - possibly the best selling single tube pen kit on the planet.

I wonder how many people would actually notice if the component diameter grew by less than a single millimeter ? Would it loose them any sales ?

I learned a long time ago in a previous career that 1mm is as vast as an ocean in relative terms.

Yes, and a huge difference in some situations, in others insignificant. For DIY pen kit components ? I doubt anyone buying them would see any difference when looked at in isolation.

Are you the same Paul?

No.

When PSI made their kits for the Rollester and Vertex who would have cared if the Vertex components were just .3mm larger so it could use the same bushes ?
With nonsense like this happening it's unlikely a major manufacturer will take the initiative to make it happen.

 

[Phil Dart]

I wonder how many people would actually notice if the component diameter grew by less than a single millimeter ?

Plenty. Particularly if they've been making pens for years, and/or if they already have an investment in kits/bushes. Someone new to our craft would not know any different.

it's unlikely a major manufacturer will take the initiative to make it happen.

At least we can agree on that. Pick and Mix might have a place amongst newly introduced kits - a new concept as it were, but for very sound reasons manufactures are unlikely to retire tried and tested kits in favour of it or amend their designs to conform with it just so that people don't have to make a one off purchase of a set of bushes.

 

[APH]

"I wonder how many people would actually notice if the component diameter grew by less than a single millimeter ?" Plenty. Particularly if they've been making pens for years, and/or if they already have an investment in kits/bushes.

Obviously it wouldn't be of any value to suddenly change existing kits.

Someone new to our craft would not know any different.

For new kits produced in future would anyone notice if component sizes had a degree of standardisation ? I doubt it.

It would be sensible for any future 'standard' sizes to incorporate legacy standards like the 7mm and 3/8" tube.
Another side benefit would be not having to source obscure drill sizes that aren't available in high quality wood drill bits. This would also offer the opportunity to sell a small set of specific high quality long drill bits to pen turners.

It could have advantages for all concerned, but needs vision to implement, so we're stuffed.

 

[Lons]

Actually this points out why it might be a good analogy. Car manufacturers stick to standard sizes to ensure the buyers can get tyres easily. You don't find BMW or VW specifying a 16.75" or 15.3"wheel diameter, they stick to the standard sizes available.
The only manufacturers bold enough to break that standard are the outrageously expensive niche makers like Lamborghini, Bugatti and Bentley. The customers for these car don't worry so much about paying highly for exclusivity.

Not that simple Paul. It isn't just rim dia that dictates tyre sizes but wheel width and stud size and pattern. Add to that aspect ratio, load and speed ratings, tread type and pattern and the variations increase, put the wrong tyres on and not only roadholding and handling but possible speedo errors could be the result.
My last 6 cars have been BMWs, Audis and now a Merc and certainly the BM wheels would not fit the Audi even though same rim size which in turn I doubt would fit my Merc, though I haven't tried the latter. My last BM had different size wheels on the rears anyway so you couldn't rotate them not that many people do these days. Annoying to have a perfectly good set of winter alloys and tyres only not to fit on your next car because the drum size and stud pattern aren't compatible.

As far as buyers being able to get tyres easily, that isn't always the case either. My car is recommended to have all season tyres fitted due to a "crabbing" characteristic on these models with standard tyres but despite the model range being introduced in 2015 there were no available tyres until 18 months later and even longer for the larger wheel sizes.

Wheels apart, the choice of tyres available is extensive and the car and commercial vehicle manufacturers don't just choose a size because that tyre is available, they work closely with the tyre manufacturers to get what their development team want. It's the vehicle manufacturers pulling the strings not the other way around, Pirelli, Mitchelin et al will produce whatever they need to compete for those volume sales.

It's academic anyway, that's a multi billion £ industry unlike the kit pen market who are never going to work together to standardize the components.

 

[Phil Dart]

It could have advantages for all concerned, but needs vision to implement, so we're stuffed.

It could have advantages - you're right. But there are two fundamental point that you continually miss. Firstly, for your dream to come true, it would take ALL manufactures to have the SAME vision, which given that they compete with each other, not collaborate with each other, it's never going to happen. Secondly, whether you accept it or not, by default, it limits creativity and design possibilities.

Personally I do not wish to live in a world where everything I buy conforms to per-determined specifications. I choose to live in a democratic western world, where free choice is available, and long may it continue. If you wish to adopt a utilitarian approach to your pen making, you go right ahead, and I will even give you some pointers. Sierras and their many variants all use the same bushes and drills. Barons and sedonas and their clones all use the same bushes and drills. Churchills and statesmen use the same bushes and drills. Jr Gents and their closes all use the same bushes and drills. There are others too. In the main they are all extremely dated designs, made in their day to a uniform standard of sizing within their groups, and the world of pen making has moved on considerably since.

 

[APH]

But there are two fundamental point that you continually miss. Firstly, for your dream to come true, it would take ALL manufactures to have the SAME vision, which given that they compete with each other, not collaborate with each other, it's never going to happen.

When have I missed that ? Read what I've written here;
Reply#8 “with so many different manufacturers it seems unlikely that could happen any time soon”
Reply #22 “It won't happen,“
Reply #33 “it's unlikely a major manufacturer will take the initiative to make it happen.“
Reply #35 “but needs vision to implement, so we're stuffed.“
I'm not living in cloud cuckoo land here, just offering a possibility of what could happen that might be advantageous to the original issue of the OP and probably the rest of us too.

Secondly, whether you accept it or not, by default, it limits creativity and design possibilities.

I completely understand your point of view on that, but I'll disagree how important it is. Designers have to work to some limits of tolerance in their design options, moving the diameter options to within the nearest mm wouldn't really make that much difference to the overall quality of designs.

 

[Lons]

Personally I do not wish to live in a world where everything I buy conforms to per-determined specifications. I choose to live in a democratic western world, where free choice is available, and long may it continue. .

Me too Phil. :bravo:

As turners and woodworkers are we not by default trying to make unique and different items anyway or should all slimlines be exactly the same shape and colour, might as well just buy a box of Bics

I repeat, you don't need bushes to make a pen and if you decide the opposite then its a simple matter to make some. The original post was suggesting that bushes are a rip off and again I repeat, if someone buys a set of bushes off your site for example at under £4 and gets 20 pens out of them that's only 20p on the cost of each pen and in practice you'd get many more than that so hardly a rip off, I doubt you'd lose much sleep if you didn't sell them. They aren't going to buy you that Ferrari are they.

 

[APH]

if someone buys a set of bushes off your site for example at under £4 and gets 20 pens out of them that's only 20p on the cost of each pen

The OP's point is that when you're starting out and want to try different styles and kits to find the ones you really like, each kit need a different set of bushes. Fine you do end up making 20 or more of the same type, but rather a waste if you make just one and no more.
Some thought from the manufacturers could reduce that need and allow new pen turners to try more designs without unnecessary expense.