High End kits

[TaylorsMirfield.co.uk]

I have a question.

What is the difference between a high quality kit and a high end kit?

Who makes the decision?

What kits do you class as a 'High End Kit'?


Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

 

[Phil Dart]

Good question!!

I read Eamonn's post other other day, in which he made the distinction, and I'm guessing so did you, so I'd be interested if he drops by to elaborate on it.

Eamonn??

 

[TaylorsMirfield.co.uk]

Good question!!

I read Eamonn's post other other day, in which he made the distinction, and I'm guessing so did you, so I'd be interested if he drops by to elaborate on it.

Eamonn??

I'm just interested. You read high end on American sites and some manufactures also state 'high end'. But who really has the ability to dictate when this term is used?
High End could mean different to what everyone else stocks, more expensive,limited edition or high quality but to the untrained eye they appear to be expensive kits.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

 

[Grump]

You probably won't like my interpretation of it but here goes.

High end is a bit of bling added to a crap kit so the man can charge more dosh.
Manufacturers label kits as high end for that reason alone.

High quality is something I have yet to see in any kit and probably never will due to the fact the high end ones are beyond my budget and to me not worth the price.
Quality is a personal judgment some are happy with a crap kits, whilst inroads are being made to improve the quality of kits for my money there is still a long way to go.

This is to take nothing away from your efforts, I and many others appreciate the work you are doing for us and any improvement is a bonus for us init?

 

[rayf6604]

My take on it is 'high end' gives a perceived level of quality, something better than the best

 

[TaylorsMirfield.co.uk]

You probably won't like my interpretation of it but here goes.

High end is a bit of bling added to a crap kit so the man can charge more dosh.
Manufacturers label kits as high end for that reason alone.

High quality is something I have yet to see in any kit and probably never will due to the fact the high end ones are beyond my budget and to me not worth the price.
Quality is a personal judgment some are happy with a crap kits, whilst inroads are being made to improve the quality of kits for my money there is still a long way to go.

This is to take nothing away from your efforts, I and many others appreciate the work you are doing for us and any improvement is a bonus for us init?

When looking on the Dayacom website etc I personally can not see enough of a difference. High quality platings yes but why call it high end?

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

 

[Bigblackdog]

i think high end has to be the more expensive models within a range. It also has to be of high quality and premium in every way.

IMHO you can get a high quality slimline but you will never be able to get a high end one.

 

[Penpal]

Since beauty is in the eye of the beholder objectivity goes out the window while subjectivity comes in to all potential receivers of pens. The essential thing is for that to keep my feet on the ground and allow others room to exercise their judgements and spending money how where and when they choose. Remember the Citroen car the basic car would never pass the sniff test of high end but fulfilled the dream for incredible numbers of us, the mini minor heavens I had responsibility for a fleet of them complete with technicians when the space race was in full swing and dishes located in snow bound road crazy places with living in the nations capital through the Iron Curtain times govt whims.

Differences stand out, high quality?, High end ?

Who makes the decision?

What kits do I class as high end?

I answer all of these every time I look at a pen reserving these impressions, trying to look at every pen I see as someone elses opportunity to express their way of making and showing.

Who is an expert among us we all have our free will to choose.

Makers those clouded people made up of huge numbers of small industry makers of parts gathered together in clans or families who sell to the bidders collated into baggies, distributed by various means to us.

I dont have a horse in this race., always put my meagre money where my mouth is, just do the best I can who else do you know who really likes Slimlines with Streamline centre bands?

Peter.

 

[flexi]

Points taken....lets throw in my spanner if i may....and liken pens to cars...we would all like an Aston? or Bently? But in reality drive a Ford or Vauxhal....what it means to me is aspirational so as Brian eluded to if you put bling on it can it be high end...no its still a Ford now with wide wheels...High end should be better quality...better enginering...better plateing...something not readily available not meerly a bolt on bit of bling....
There thats my 2 peneth
Ps keep up your good work Dan its going the right way

 

[rayf6604]

Points taken....lets throw in my spanner if i may....and liken pens to cars...we would all like an Aston? or Bently? But in reality drive a Ford or Vauxhal....what it means to me is aspirational so as Brian eluded to if you put bling on it can it be high end...no its still a Ford now with wide wheels...High end should be better quality...better enginering...better plateing...something not readily available not meerly a bolt on bit of bling....
There thats my 2 peneth
Ps keep up your good work Dan its going the right way

That's the best interpretation of the meaning so far in my opinion. In pen terms I guess you could say that Mont Blanc pens would be high end, Conway Stewart pens the same. It's very open to interpretation and one man's high end could be another man's tat

 

[scouseroy]

to a poor man a bic is better than a quill, its all relative!

 

[Jim]

High end is how you (me) perceive it to be .. This can be due to costs, a rarity of the kit or just a one off .. If i usually buy a kit for £5 then for a one off buy one for £10, this to me is a high end ..

 

[Walter]

Semantics.

 

[Phil Dart]

Semantics? I'm inclined to agree.

By Brians definition, the crappiest chinese slimline with a cheap crystal added to the clip becomes high end. He may be right.
By another definition, if the quality of manufacture is better than its competitor it becomes high end.

One thing is for certain, and almost all here (but not quite everyone here) seem to agree - a high end pen has to be high quality in the first place otherwise it cannot be high end, but by yet another definition, just because its high quality, it is not necessarily high end.

But I put this to you. Everyone here knows what I do and how I earn a living. In the course of earning my living, it pays me to know a bit about the pen world at large. I KNOW who makes Mont Blanc's nibs for them, I KNOW how and and where the components of their pens are made. I KNOW that the principles behind the manufacturer of a Mont Blanc pen are PRECISELY the same as the principles that every one of us on this forum applies to making his of her pens. Take a tube, decorate the outside of the tube in some way, press in the fittings etc, etc etc. They are all made the same way whether they are Joe Blogs Garage Pens or Mont Blanc Pay Through The Nose Pens.

I also know that Mont Blanc are currently hawking a limited edition pen made from the only tree to remain standing after the Boxing Day pacific tsunami a couple of years back (which presumably, and ironically, they felled to the ground to make their pens) They are selling them for the wrong side of £1400 each. Now Mont Blanc are undoubtedly PERCEIVED as high end pens, but if you put a decent nib (mentioning no names) in the front of the highest quality FP kit you can think of (you decide on the kit), assuming your design and turning ability is top notch, is it then no more than a perception that Mont Blanc are higher end than the upgraded FP kit you've just made?

So.... I'm inclined to agree with Walter in that it's no more than semantics, but I introduce perception to the equation too, which is brought about by market position, which is brought about by marketing.

If you are one who sells your pens at craft fairs, and have a stall full of slimlines, is it not unreasonable to then say that the couple of Omegas and Barons you also have displayed are high end? It's all relative in my view, and is down to the perception of the purchaser. We are the purchasers of the kits, so its down to us as individuals to decide for ourselves, which of those kits is high end, which as Brian bravely pointed out is largely by comparison to the rank and file kits that are your normal staple. Our own customers are the purchasers of the pens we make, and its down to them to decide which of those is high end.

So, I introduce a third and final aspect to the equation....semantics, perception........ and a vast amount of subjectivity

 

[Bammer]

Very interesting this, without knowing all the in depth production of the various kits, I can only ASS u Me that the price causes a pen to be high end. ...

BUT

My other main interest is fishing, which I probably know more about that Pen Kits.

A product, say a rig wallet is made in a factory in the east somewhere, then a label is applied ......

Low end company now sell them for £5.00

A well known company will sell the same rig wallet for £15.99 because it's name is on it

Same Quality, Same Product but is the dearer one considered High End ??

 

[Bob Ellis]

Being a lot newer to this than most who post here, I am commenting on this question not because I know but because I want to know. If high end means a mediocre kit with a bit of bling, then I am not interested. What does interest me greatly is finding out which kits are high quality. I asked this question in another thread, but nobody really answered it. At present I am am having to find out which kits are high quality and which are not by buying them, making them and, in most cases, being disappointed by the quality.

To me, high quality should mean a good quality mechanism and plating and a kit that fits together well. I have a Cross ballpoint and pencil and had until recently a Waterman fountain pen that I have had for years - long before I became interested in pen making. In the last year I have made somewhere between 80 and 100 pens from a range of different kits. Not one of them matches the standard of the mechanism of my Crosses or Waterman and only one - a Gentleman's fountain pen, matches the quality of the plating. I have just started my first TM pen and I am hoping that this will meet my desire for high quality.

It would save me and others from wasting money on poor quality products if some of the more experienced contributors here would name some kits that they regard as high quality and tell us why they think so. It is true that their opinions will be subjective, but their opinions would be a better starting point for us less experienced turners than guesswork based on just looking at a picture in a catalogue or on-line and saying "That looks high quality. I'll buy one of those"...and then being disappointed with it.

 

[wm460]

Points taken....lets throw in my spanner if i may....and liken pens to cars...we would all like an Aston? or Bently? But in reality drive a Ford or Vauxhal....what it means to me is aspirational so as Brian eluded to if you put bling on it can it be high end...no its still a Ford now with wide wheels...High end should be better quality...better enginering...better plateing...something not readily available not meerly a bolt on bit of bling....
There thats my 2 peneth
Ps keep up your good work Dan its going the right way

I would give almost any thing to own a Ford Falcon XYGTHO

 

[Grump]

Bob I will answer your question in the only way I know how and that by being blunt and at the risk of upsetting plenty of folk.

My test of quality is very much in the plating, I will justify my reason as Phil has said above in a roundabout way.
All our kits are put together the same with the same components, nib , twist transmission, click, whatever, that varies from one manufacturer to another as much as it varies from the same manufacturer in different batches.
That is a lottery on what you get at the time of purchase but nevertheless the same in respect of what it is.

Work on the standard platings just to simplify the task, how thick is the plating and how long is it reasonable to expect it to stay chrome or gold?
I have done lots of testing and lots of plating, I have not yet found any kit that can stand up to a good buff on a wheel, yes they do vary but all within a few seconds are back to brass.

Example and I can't for the life of me think of the name of kit, it's a sierra with a hat on, Sceptre is in my head as I think about it.
I was sent the kit when we had a previous kit quality argument, to ask my opinion of it.
While I had to agree it was a pretty pen when made up and did take a little longer for the plating to wear but wear it did and came back to me with brass showing through.

I told the owner I would put better quality furniture on the pen and return it to her when done.
I buffed of the remaining plating and put the components in the Dunhill lighter vat and plated to 30 microns, reassembled and returned it.
She was over the moon with her now perfect pen, she said it's beautiful and she could feel the difference in the new components they are so much better quality, why didn't I make it with these parts in the first instance?
She doesn't know to this day they are the same parts with a thicker plating.

She asked me to make a fountain for her hubby, I plated it to 30 microns from the packet and he has what she calls a perfect pen, it has a standard nib, he asked for a spare nib and got another standard nib from another kit.
People have their own ideas on what is quality and what is not.
I am sorry you didn't get the answer you wanted from your previous question but you are doing the right thing the best way in trying the various kits and manufacturers for yourself.

I have gobbed off to many times on this subject and my views are well known that all kits within our grasp are crap, regardless of label, type, or who makes them.
I know there are many who disagree and will tell you how wrong I am, bring your kit to my shed and I will show you how poor it is.

 

[Penpal]

Extending the thoughts on plating my carry pen has been through the entire cycles in our washing machine still looks great was found separate to the pocket it must have been in when put in the machine the biro shat itself inside the pen a simple wipe out new biro and its great. With regard to fills and refills I have read so much twadle about how awful the original fill is in a kit how bad they are to write with etc never had one problem after I make the pen I love the fine line.

Three main tests I apply to Slimlines 1. I use a brass holder to hold the brass while I ruff it up if its too tight I throw that brass away. 2. I check the winding mechanism by winding it in either direction the set it fully extended and always press it in this position I chuck away faulty mechanisms a small number over literally thousands of good ones. 3. Using a cheap tapered reamer to provide a smooth entry when pressing the top and tip of each kit. I forgot I always check the biro if it writes well or not I have jars of refills I bought several hundred nearly 30 yrs ago no main failures to this day other than four that I can recdall.

Anyone who puts a huge mark up on a Slimline then says they are cheap kits yes they are cheap, not a doddle to make properly and never made to last forever. Now a days there are upmarket coatings. The only Slimline that passed through me that was ugly as sin after some years was owned by my son who works in major Air Conditioning for huge construction jobs drops it continually from great heights etc, still using it after several years.

If you oversell or overmarket cheap kits it can bite you back IMHO. No one has ever come back with a faulty Slimline to me.

Peter.

 

[Phil Dart]

I am commenting on this question not because I know but because I want to know...
...What does interest me greatly is finding out which kits are high quality. I asked this question in another thread, but nobody really answered it.
...It would save me and others from wasting money on poor quality products if some of the more experienced contributors here would name some kits that they regard as high quality and tell us why they think so.

I understand where you are coming from Bob, but you are going through the same journey as the rest of us, in that you are discovering for yourself which kits are better than others, which is the best way because it IS subjective.

However, to give you some pointers and to save you some money, I can tell you this. I make more pens than most people here, and less than some - it's what puts the food on the table in this household. There are a confusing number of kits out there, many of which share the same name, and many of which superficially share the same appearance but have a different name. Completely forgetting about any kit that can be imported from the US or Australia, you are limited to a handful of suppliers in the UK. That handful can be broadly split in to two groups. The first group, which includes the majority (but not all) ebay traders, buy their kits from one of two sources in China, and sell them for more than they paid for them. In the main, (and I emphasise that this is my personal opinion), they are not very good quality. The quality is not good because they have poor plating, poor mechanisms, poor tolerances, poor quality etchings (if it exists) and so on.

The other group generally have their kits made for them, not just buy off the shelf kits to flog at a marked up price, and in the main (with the possible exception of Axminster, whose catalogue features an awful lot of those chinese kits, with one or two others thrown in) they are made for them in Taiwan. Whilst still the republic of China, there is a world of difference between mainland chinese kits and taiwanese kits

Here is one example - a sierra. Buy a sierra off ebay and buy one from Turners retreat. I guarantee that the ebay kit is chinese and the TR kit is taiwanese. Superficially they look the same. But compare the etching on the centreband, the mechanism, the plating, the enamelling, the finishing, the ease with which they go together and so on. They are worlds apart. But pay particular attention to the etching - its a pretty good identifier of chinese kits from a catalogue of website image. You can spot a chinese kit a mile off if it features some etching.

So, for myself, I avoid kits made in China, but Taiwan is a good starting point. I happen to think that a lot of the TR kits are good quality, their sierras included. Their slimlines are good too (the refill does not disappear inside the pen whilst you're writing with it, which is not necessarily true of chinese slimlines) as are their barons and, sedonas, gents classics and a few more. In the interests of completeness, they do also have some kits which I don't think are very good, to the point that I have returned them before now for a refund.

Dans zetas and epsilons are very good too (also Taiwanese) and his omega now has quite a large market share.

I will probably be in trouble for some of the statements I've made, because, to give another example, I know for instance that an extremely popular kit is the Jr Gent, available from all sorts of places and made in China. There are variations made in taiwan but they tend to be called something in addition to Jr Gent, such as Artisan Jr Gent, or Jr Gent II, or Gents Classic, but the ordinary Jr is, as I say, chinese and popular. Why is it popular? I have no ideas whatsoever, because it is no more than a poor mans baron and it shows, but it demonstrates that there are as many different opinions about kits as there are penturners. Therefore, although you would dearly love some recommendations and pointers, and I have given you some, the very best way to sort the wheat from the chaff is by trial and error for yourself.

I hope that helps.