High End kits

[Grump]

Don't be misled by a pretty pic or a fancy name, it don't matter if the kit is called Heavenly paradise, Angels wings, Bill, Harry or late for breakfast, it's still the same shit kit that you have bought and paid for.
Its up to you now to make something of it or bin it init?

 

[Penpal]

Phil so many manufacturers in Taiwan have two bob each way with manufacturing plants in both places PRC and Taiwan who after all are brothers in the skin ie the manufacturing skin. I followed for so many years the visits of my friend David from Timberbits where he made his ever so many trips to both countries in fact the largest maker had him provide finished product / pictures of his releases, David pioneered his own market in kits he designed the art work for and obtained exclusivity. I was a very early direct purchaser from China at Ritz Heng. David has a huge advantage over most of us he speaks the language fluently understands the ideom, he pioneered videos of his simplicity in making sharing his knowledge a practice now followed in the USA.

This is not a diatribe against people like you no need for comparisons between suppliers though it seems a favourite game from time to time. Early days I used to pay a premium for my kits choosing branch plating over dip or rolled plating, yes I was never there to visually check or prove the difference. I was on the internet earlier and a guy gave directions to his Pen site where his average price for cheap pen kits finished was 167.00 US.
EArly days I bought round a thousand brass pieces for Slimlines large numbers of winders, clips and component parts enabling me to make or part make numbers of pens at any one time I used to drill mount up to 150 doubles of blanks at a time. Never has making pens been a living rather I chose in the last nearly twenty years to live within my Pensioner means. I spoke to David yrs ago about using Streamline centre bands he bought on the spot 1500 of each plating and this started a trend to give modified or more choice with Slimlines.

Whenever I reply or comment on your use of and reciprocal benefits on this forum I applaud your choices of upgrade refills, introduction of kits, alternate nibs, many products in cooperation with your friend and mine Dan using mutual respect.

Market research, showing new kits, stocking them receives the full backing of the forum as it should.

I love discussions on kits etc Eamonn gave it a go as well love his trying to inform and educate us.

Take care and prosper mate.

Peter.

 

[Bob Ellis]

Thanks very much, Phil, for a very useful and informative post. I suspect that many people who are new or relatively new to pen turning will find the information you have provided very helpful.

I appreciate your point that quality is to some extent subjective and that people like me need to try kits for ourselves and form our own judgement. However, we are less likely to be disappointed if we are following the recommendations of somebody with great experience than if we are just trying things blind. I wasn't aware of the distinction you make between Chinese and Taiwanese pen kits and will bear this in mind when ordering kits in future.

 

[Grump]

Your all going off on a tangent as if China and Taiwan are the only places that make kits.
Yes they make the bulk of what we buy and yes one is better than the other but the original question was one of high end and high quality.

High end is in a name, high quality you will not get from either of the above.
If you want quality make or commission your own.

When a British manufacturer start producing a quality kit I would love to be able to buy it, of course it won't happen cos this world we all live in is not about quality, it's about money.

I WAS MADE IN ENGLAND.

 

[Walter]

Perhaps we should stop using the term "high end" as it means so little.

Brian is right that none of the readily available kits will stand up to his plating test although even those he has plated himself to 30 microns would ultimately succumb if abraded for long enough.

What we have in reality is a continuum of plating quality from the very thin to the just about adequate and of component fit from poor to quite good. Supply and demand drives this. Not enough people are prepared to pay the price for parts made to fine tolerances and plated to 30 microns for anyone to justify trying to sell them in large volumes. High quality parts are available if you are prepared to pay for them. Silver Pen Parts and Drechselstube Neckarsteinach for example. The latter use Schmidt and Bock nibs and internal parts. As far as I know they are made in Germany rather than the far east.

What anyone chooses to buy and use is up to them, but I prefer to buy the slightly better quality Taiwanese kits (see Phil's earlier post) and have never had a pen returned because of worn plating. I do not claim they are supreme quality, just better than the cheap Chinese e-bay tat. They suit the market I am selling in.

If you are selling £10 slimlines in village craft fairs then you might prefer to buy £1 kits from Rizheng.

If you are like Phil Irons and making pens that sell for up to £700 you might prefer the Drechselstube components.

 

[Phil Dart]

Your all going off on a tangent as if China and Taiwan are the only places that make kits.
Yes they make the bulk of what we buy and yes one is better than the other but the original question was one of high end and high quality.

High end is in a name, high quality you will not get from either of the above.
If you want quality make or commission your own.

When a British manufacturer start producing a quality kit I would love to be able to buy it, of course it won't happen cos this world we all live in is not about quality, it's about money.

I WAS MADE IN ENGLAND.

To all intents and purposes Brian, China and Taiwan ARE the only places that make kits. There are one or two notable exception, DNS kits from Germany for instance, but the only reason they are able to keep their prices marginally short of silly is because, rather like polo mints, half of the kit is missing - they are a completely different concept to what most turners recognise as a pen kit and you have to make half the components yourself.

I recently posted a thread introducing a brand new pen kit which I have designed myself, from first principles, which Beaufort Ink will start selling as soon as they are ready. I am at liberty to get it made where ever I choose and don't think for one moment that I would not prefer them to be British made. However, on investigating the cost of making them in GB, or in Germany for that matter, I know fine that in a world where turners buy a poorer kit from Supplier A because it's 50 pence cheaper than a better kit from Supplier B, my kits were they to be British made would sit on a shelf gathering dust because the cost of labour and raw materials in GB is way too high to be viable. Sad isn't it?!!

So until the world of pen turning comes to terms with the fact that sometimes its better to spend a bit more to end up with a better product, sometimes its better to buy from your own country even though to buy from Australia is no more expensive (absolutely no digs or jibes intended, Australia is just an example!!!) as I said at the start, to all intents and purposes, for 99.99% of pemturners, yes China and Taiwan are the only places where pen kits are made.

 

[Grump]

Thank you Phil, I have been saying this for years.
It's not about quality it it is about money, I rest my case Milud!!!

 

[Walter]

I think we three are pretty much in agreement then.

Supply and demand drives this. Not enough people are prepared to pay the price for parts made to fine tolerances and plated to 30 microns for anyone to justify trying to sell them in large volumes.

I know fine that in a world where turners buy a poorer kit from Supplier A because it's 50 pence cheaper than a better kit from Supplier B, my kits were they to be British made would sit on a shelf gathering dust because the cost of labour and raw materials in GB is way too high to be viable. Sad isn't it?!!

It's not about quality it it is about money, I rest my case Milud!!!

 

[Phil Dart]

I think we three are pretty much in agreement then.

Yep, it seems so.

I'll try to summarise -

High end is a completely subjective term and is directly proportionate to the balance of one's bank account.
(Dart's 3rd law of pen turning)

 

[Walter]

(Dart's 3rd law of pen turning)

What are the first two?

 

[Phil Dart]

What are the first two?

Oooh! I'm glad you asked Walter.

Dart's 1st law -
The best turned pen writes only as well as its refill or nib.

Dart's 2nd law -
A lasting finish requires more than chance and/or friction polish

 

[Bob Ellis]

A very interesting post Walter. I didn't know about Silver Pen Parts or DNS and have just looked at their websites. I wonder whether they are worth the money. Maybe one day I will feel wealthy and/or foolish enough to try one so that I can find out.

 

[flexi]

As we finaly put this hot potato to bed....can i just add...
I quite like the pen kits from Laserlinez in the US a bit of a different take...there made of Stainless steel so no plateing issues...good tolerences( all made on CNC)...but could do with a decent refil..

 

[Jim]

Those Marksman pens are good quality Mark ..

 

[silver]

Well I have missed an excellent thread by the looks of it. was incapacitated due to an alergic reaction to a change around of tablets.. back now..

I believe that Walter has covered what I call higher end pen kits, silver pen parts and DNS.

The so called High end from Dayacom are over rated and over priced, even though I say that they are the pen kits I sell most of.

The Emporer being the best selling pen kit among them.

My statement in the thread was a comment that everyone gets hung up on, calling the intermediate pricey UK supplier kits high end. When they are a slightly better quality than so called other kits.

The truth high end pens are these Skiprat Pens - Gallery [Page 2] those kits can't be purchased from anywhere but are created by a true artist.

I believe that anyone that makes the kitless pens and uses quality parts then they are the high end pens that can be so called High end pens.

All in all the debate was a good one and I suppose I have not added much to it by putting this on it but it's my view on what we have for pen kit availability.

By the way, I believe you are all right..

Now where is me tablets.

 

[silver]

As we finaly put this hot potato to bed...:

No

That will never happen as long as me and grump are on here..

 

[Penpal]

When all is said and done I will just do my best with what I can the thrill of making never wanes.

Peter.

 

[Grump]

Eamonn, hope you are feeling better now mate.

Good to have your input and one I totally agree with. (Did I really say that?)
I did wonder why we hadn't heard from you, Neil F usually has something to say on kit quality to, maybe he's on the road.

I think we all know the matter has not been put to bed, the subject will rear it's head again in the not to distant future.

 

[Penpal]

Glad you came back in Silver was worried when you spat the pacifier sympathetic I have meds that make me run some that send me spinning so many but I am gratefull for the mobility I have usually the afternoon sleep works wonders for me.

Peter.

 

[Vic Perrin]

An excellent read with a lot of food for thought but I for one am not that much wiser