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Making thin 'veneer' slices accurately, and Pen Boxes
- Thread starter MrJoshua
- Start date
Jim, drift causes problems because the wood moves away from the fence and allows the blade to wander because the wood can now move side-to-side. By retaining the wood on both sides while cutting it is kept firmly agains the fence and can't wander. The result will be a parallel cut because the blade will automatically orient itself fore and aft in the cut - think a ship's rudder when the wheel is released, it adjusts itself to the path of least resistance.
MrJoshua
Full Member
Thanks David - that all makes perfect sense. Would you not have a portion of the cut though where the blade begins to drift (to the extend of any flex available within its tension), then straightens as it can flex no further?
Maybe not the case at all, but that's just how I'd imagine it happening, OR potentially it beginning like that then the blade derailing as it tries to 'insist' on drifting, and is prevented by the fences, so it twists off the wheels instead?
Guess the answer is "no" since I'm sure it wouldn't be recommended as a cure otherwise. Just me thinking out loud really. When I've tried using the fence before and when the blade drifts I've sacked off the fence and cut freehand instead, as it seemed like trying to force the piece to stay against the fence would make something nasty happen.
Yep, they're not fully in line so I think I need to look at that more closely. The fact I've modified the fence to sit at an angle has given at least a workaround, but it'd be nice not to have to.
Kevin - thanks for the youtube suggestion. I'm going to look them up on there. I've just set up my cheap nasty router table to start trying to make use of, and I figure it should help a lot for box making potentially.
The router itself is a Bosch one but the table is a cheap 'Wolf' one where the side support platforms don't even sit flush with the table etc. It'll be fun trying to tweak that and make it useable too. I enjoy trying to sort these things out though, and don't have the option of more expensive kit (for now anyway), nor the space for larger kit, so I have to try and optimise what I have rather than grumble about it. :)
Maybe not the case at all, but that's just how I'd imagine it happening, OR potentially it beginning like that then the blade derailing as it tries to 'insist' on drifting, and is prevented by the fences, so it twists off the wheels instead?
Guess the answer is "no" since I'm sure it wouldn't be recommended as a cure otherwise. Just me thinking out loud really. When I've tried using the fence before and when the blade drifts I've sacked off the fence and cut freehand instead, as it seemed like trying to force the piece to stay against the fence would make something nasty happen.
Yep, they're not fully in line so I think I need to look at that more closely. The fact I've modified the fence to sit at an angle has given at least a workaround, but it'd be nice not to have to.
Kevin - thanks for the youtube suggestion. I'm going to look them up on there. I've just set up my cheap nasty router table to start trying to make use of, and I figure it should help a lot for box making potentially.
The router itself is a Bosch one but the table is a cheap 'Wolf' one where the side support platforms don't even sit flush with the table etc. It'll be fun trying to tweak that and make it useable too. I enjoy trying to sort these things out though, and don't have the option of more expensive kit (for now anyway), nor the space for larger kit, so I have to try and optimise what I have rather than grumble about it. :)
As Jim mentioned is probably why it is running out of true that is why I asked the question about where it was tracking. The problem with bandsaws is that it only takes two or three slightly out a bit to cause run out one being the tracking another the guides set incorrectly and another a blade that has been used for cutting circles as well as being a poor blade.
Lons
Fellow
Hi Jim
I'm lucky enough to have a decent Startrite 352 and as I said previously, my guide is shimmed and so at an angle to the table as well. I adjusted it when I fitted a new blade and when the blade became blunt it started to operate exactly as yours does. new blade, minor adjustment and it's perfect again - until the next time.
My previous bandsaws were both DeWalt models, one of which was a little 3 wheel model, same adjustment required and worked well.,
I think you're over complicating it tbh. A bandsaw works perfectly well, even a cheap one within its' limits but will never cut parallel to the guide unless it's "fettled". I don't see the problem with a guide being at an angle as long as it produces the required results.
Have a look at Steve Maskerys' dvds, he sells an excellent one for bandsaws. Great Woodworking DVDs for woodworkers by woodworkers
If you want perfect and consistent cuts, it may be worth considering a tablesaw.
I have to look after a variety of Band saws, some old, some new!
The older saws are designed in such a way that the teeth of a blade will never touch a tyre of a wheel, and always be forward of the tyre itself, if it is tracked correctly.
Newer ones tend to recommend that the blade is centred on the tyre, and are usually designed to track in this way.
This causes excessive wear to the tyres (a consumable part, not covered by Guarantee), and they need
to be replaced periodically. Tensioning on to the teeth can also disturb the set of the blade. (Cynic!)
The only tracking adjustment I am aware of is on the upper wheel. If the blade sits in a different position on the lower wheel, something is not right.
Some saws specify that the guides should touch the blade in operation, and some do not. Solid metal guides are usually set a little further out, but roller guides can be much further in.
These are also considered consumables by the way!
The blade teeth should be forward of the upper and lower guides, but the back of the blade should contact both thrust bearings on making a cut.
Disconnect your saw.
Refit the blade and bring near to tension.
Set all guides out as far as they will go.
Turn the top wheel using a long piece of wood in the spokes. (safety first!), until it tracks, then tension up.
Run the machine to make sure the blade is true, then turn off and disconnect.
Set every thing to touch the blade then twist it slightly side to side, to set the guide bearings.
Grab and push back the blade about 1/8th" (3.2mm), and set the thrust bearings.
If it doesn't cut straight now, it never will!
The older saws are designed in such a way that the teeth of a blade will never touch a tyre of a wheel, and always be forward of the tyre itself, if it is tracked correctly.
Newer ones tend to recommend that the blade is centred on the tyre, and are usually designed to track in this way.
This causes excessive wear to the tyres (a consumable part, not covered by Guarantee), and they need
to be replaced periodically. Tensioning on to the teeth can also disturb the set of the blade. (Cynic!)
The only tracking adjustment I am aware of is on the upper wheel. If the blade sits in a different position on the lower wheel, something is not right.
Some saws specify that the guides should touch the blade in operation, and some do not. Solid metal guides are usually set a little further out, but roller guides can be much further in.
These are also considered consumables by the way!
The blade teeth should be forward of the upper and lower guides, but the back of the blade should contact both thrust bearings on making a cut.
Disconnect your saw.
Refit the blade and bring near to tension.
Set all guides out as far as they will go.
Turn the top wheel using a long piece of wood in the spokes. (safety first!), until it tracks, then tension up.
Run the machine to make sure the blade is true, then turn off and disconnect.
Set every thing to touch the blade then twist it slightly side to side, to set the guide bearings.
Grab and push back the blade about 1/8th" (3.2mm), and set the thrust bearings.
If it doesn't cut straight now, it never will!
wm460
Grand Master
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Soon as I get rid of my interstate guest that have been staying for the last fortnight I will have to study this to get my B/saw working properly.
MrJoshua
Full Member
Bob - I do have a tablesaw, but again, it's a really cheap one (Ferm FTZ270 I think) which I had to modify to run straight & parallel, but I got it for £30 so don't mind a bit of meddling at that price. It's fairly crap but better than having no tablesaw, and as a learner, my only real gripe with it is the size of the table itself is way too small to cut anything of a decent size. I have limited shed space though, so compromises have to happen of course.
Neil - thanks for the extra tips. The main point from I need to achieve from that really is to get the tracking inline I think on the two wheels. Yes only the top one adjusts, and from all attempts thus far it doesn't matter what you do with that; you can get it centred on the tyre at the top, but not the bottom. Thus I think I need to do some tweaking to the position of one of the wheels to get round that.
I've done some of the adjustments described but not necessarily in the order you've said above.
Neil - thanks for the extra tips. The main point from I need to achieve from that really is to get the tracking inline I think on the two wheels. Yes only the top one adjusts, and from all attempts thus far it doesn't matter what you do with that; you can get it centred on the tyre at the top, but not the bottom. Thus I think I need to do some tweaking to the position of one of the wheels to get round that.
I've done some of the adjustments described but not necessarily in the order you've said above.
Lons
Fellow
yes Jim, it's always about compromised whether it be time, space or funds and I guess most of us have been there. The biggest problem with cheap machinery is that while it usually possible to set it up reasonably well it doesn't stay that way for long. No substitute for a big lump of solid cast iron. I have a very cheap pro power tablesaw I take to site sometimes.( can't move my SIP very far 
) The fence is broken and was useless anyway but with a wood guide clamped on and a good blade it's surprising what can be achieved. Just a bit of a pita to set up.
Keep at it and you'll get there.
) The fence is broken and was useless anyway but with a wood guide clamped on and a good blade it's surprising what can be achieved. Just a bit of a pita to set up.Keep at it and you'll get there.
Penpal
Grand Master
I used a huge bandsaw for many years that was a meat saw had a sliding table I scrapped and I fitted ball race guides instead of slides it never had rubber or any tyres huge wheels the blades lasted exceptionally well it had a big throat and broke up countless burls. I fitted huge angle iron bolted to the heavy frame but it still flexed and my comment is I have never seen a bandsaw that was really rigid in the frame so all settings do their best always compromise. My mate who cuts his own veneers where critical cuts are the norm winds his tension very high, his are the 10.000 dollar minimum boxes I have shown in the past.
I have a few bandsaws the largest a 3 hp 18 inch wheel unit I would call crap in a revue but it is an industry standard from over sideways, our Wood Guild bought a Hammer top of the range been crying ever since that (any bandsaw) is the very hardest to maintain in a club workshop.
Looking for the ultimate the club bought a Sawstop Saw then you learn the high cost of multi users and training needed to use.
I confess if I was smallish boxes etc minded I would invest in a bench top saw and a specialist feed in device and thin blade for real accuracy mind you in all the vids I have seen magic cutting on guys band saws.
The problem is accentuated by the blade joining quality of any bandsaw operation and setting up.
Like precision driving others make it look easy. PS Neil I feel for you setting up and maintaing for schoolies.
Peter.
I have a few bandsaws the largest a 3 hp 18 inch wheel unit I would call crap in a revue but it is an industry standard from over sideways, our Wood Guild bought a Hammer top of the range been crying ever since that (any bandsaw) is the very hardest to maintain in a club workshop.
Looking for the ultimate the club bought a Sawstop Saw then you learn the high cost of multi users and training needed to use.
I confess if I was smallish boxes etc minded I would invest in a bench top saw and a specialist feed in device and thin blade for real accuracy mind you in all the vids I have seen magic cutting on guys band saws.
The problem is accentuated by the blade joining quality of any bandsaw operation and setting up.
Like precision driving others make it look easy. PS Neil I feel for you setting up and maintaing for schoolies.
Peter.
MrJoshua
Full Member
Cheers mate
To be honest, even when I criticise some of the tools I have it's not a complaint as such, just a means of trying to get info to get the best result from what I have.
I consider myself very fortunate with all the stuff I have really. I'm a hobbyist, and working with timber is new to me in the sense of trying to do things right and create good results rather than functional results.
I've learned the hard way over the years about buy cheap/buy twice and I'm sure in due course I'll replace some of these things with better tools (I did buy a de walt thicknesser recently as a big woodworking spend), as I have done with all the tools I use for mechanical type work, which are all pretty high quality. I enjoy using them every time as a result, knowing they won't let me down where cheaper ones have in the past.
But I think the rambling point I'm making is that I've always preferred (or been forced by budget maybe) to begin with cheap tools, then try to learn how to get the best from them, then perhaps once I understand the limitations and am hindered by them to move to something better if I can afford to and can't work around it.
It's all fun learning.
Speaking of which - here's something that was new to me last night with a pen I was making.
I'd made this pen some time ago, it's a classic elite rollerball (the one with the o-rings), and I used mahogany for it with a CA finish.
It didn't take too long to make and get what looked like a lovely finish, but shortly after I realised somewhere within the layers of CA (or beneath) there were tiny white flecks showing and spoiling the pen.
I sanded it back and reworked the finish last night, spending a couple of hours or so on it, getting it perfect (the white bits were sanded CA dust in the grain of the wood. A schoolboy error!), then as I took it off the lathe I realised something was horribly wrong.
My nail pressed on the pen barrel and it squashed beneath the pressure! I prodded it a few times and realised there was either a void between the brass tube and the wood, or the water sprayed while sanding/using mesh had somehow got in the fibres and made them swell or something.
I cut an 'incision' in the wood in a couple of places and put thin CA in first (to get round any spaces inside) then thick CA to seal it as I pressed the wood surface back down, leaving superglue fingerprints all over the pen barrel, sighing in a sort of resigned way, and knowing I'd have to refinish it all tonight. I have done, and no flex in the wood now thank ****. I dread to think how long I've spent on this pen now (specially given it's a freebie for family), but it looks quite nice, and the time doesn't really matter so much as having an end result I'm pleased with, and hopefully my cousin will be too. :)
But mostly they're hand tools not machines so with stuff that takes up a lot of space (aside from cost)
To be honest, even when I criticise some of the tools I have it's not a complaint as such, just a means of trying to get info to get the best result from what I have.
I consider myself very fortunate with all the stuff I have really. I'm a hobbyist, and working with timber is new to me in the sense of trying to do things right and create good results rather than functional results.
I've learned the hard way over the years about buy cheap/buy twice and I'm sure in due course I'll replace some of these things with better tools (I did buy a de walt thicknesser recently as a big woodworking spend), as I have done with all the tools I use for mechanical type work, which are all pretty high quality. I enjoy using them every time as a result, knowing they won't let me down where cheaper ones have in the past.
But I think the rambling point I'm making is that I've always preferred (or been forced by budget maybe) to begin with cheap tools, then try to learn how to get the best from them, then perhaps once I understand the limitations and am hindered by them to move to something better if I can afford to and can't work around it.
It's all fun learning.
Speaking of which - here's something that was new to me last night with a pen I was making.
I'd made this pen some time ago, it's a classic elite rollerball (the one with the o-rings), and I used mahogany for it with a CA finish.
It didn't take too long to make and get what looked like a lovely finish, but shortly after I realised somewhere within the layers of CA (or beneath) there were tiny white flecks showing and spoiling the pen.
I sanded it back and reworked the finish last night, spending a couple of hours or so on it, getting it perfect (the white bits were sanded CA dust in the grain of the wood. A schoolboy error!), then as I took it off the lathe I realised something was horribly wrong.
My nail pressed on the pen barrel and it squashed beneath the pressure! I prodded it a few times and realised there was either a void between the brass tube and the wood, or the water sprayed while sanding/using mesh had somehow got in the fibres and made them swell or something.
I cut an 'incision' in the wood in a couple of places and put thin CA in first (to get round any spaces inside) then thick CA to seal it as I pressed the wood surface back down, leaving superglue fingerprints all over the pen barrel, sighing in a sort of resigned way, and knowing I'd have to refinish it all tonight. I have done, and no flex in the wood now thank ****. I dread to think how long I've spent on this pen now (specially given it's a freebie for family), but it looks quite nice, and the time doesn't really matter so much as having an end result I'm pleased with, and hopefully my cousin will be too. :)
But mostly they're hand tools not machines so with stuff that takes up a lot of space (aside from cost)
MrJoshua
Full Member
Thanks Peter. In all honesty I think with any sort of machine there is always some form of compromise and imperfection, so from the cheapest up to really expensive stuff I expect people still chase issues, just fewer issues with the better tools.
Not had much time this week to test it and meddle more but I'm off this next week to look after the kids as it's TT week (yay!) so they're off school. Sure I can sneak some time in there.....
Not had much time this week to test it and meddle more but I'm off this next week to look after the kids as it's TT week (yay!) so they're off school. Sure I can sneak some time in there.....
Lons
Fellow
Hi Jim
I learned the cheap tools lesson when I was still a kid and so saved pocket money and paper round earnings for months to buy 1 tool at a time. I still have number of my original hand tools and wouldn't part with them.
Because of my business needs over the last 18 years I have sometimes had to buy a cheap power tool in emergencies but always viewed them as consumable and they never lasted long. Long term purchases are always decent quality. Different of course for hobyists where they get only light use.
I also learned that it's often much better to by quality second hand machinery as long as due diligence is applied to ensure there are no major issues and spares are available. I have a Robland 310 planer thicknesser that was in excellent condition bought a 30% of new price for example.
As far as your problems with the pen, some of the other guys on here are much better qualified than me to offer opinion but it sounds as though the hole in the blank may have been a little oversize and the void hasn't been filled with the glue, (what did you use btw?). Could also have been a void not noticed when drilled which can happen especially if a burr. I use either polyurethane glue or epoxy for those reasons though others are very happy with ca.
I learned the cheap tools lesson when I was still a kid and so saved pocket money and paper round earnings for months to buy 1 tool at a time. I still have number of my original hand tools and wouldn't part with them.
Because of my business needs over the last 18 years I have sometimes had to buy a cheap power tool in emergencies but always viewed them as consumable and they never lasted long. Long term purchases are always decent quality. Different of course for hobyists where they get only light use.
I also learned that it's often much better to by quality second hand machinery as long as due diligence is applied to ensure there are no major issues and spares are available. I have a Robland 310 planer thicknesser that was in excellent condition bought a 30% of new price for example.
As far as your problems with the pen, some of the other guys on here are much better qualified than me to offer opinion but it sounds as though the hole in the blank may have been a little oversize and the void hasn't been filled with the glue, (what did you use btw?). Could also have been a void not noticed when drilled which can happen especially if a burr. I use either polyurethane glue or epoxy for those reasons though others are very happy with ca.
MrJoshua
Full Member
Aye, the vast majority of my good mechanic type hand tools are things like Snap on but only where I've bought them as a bargain second hand as I'd never (couldn't anyway!) pay those sort of prices!! Difficult for me to get bargain machines though on the isle of man as ebay has some real treats, but the delivery cost is prohibitive and many sellers are collection only on big things, so I have what I have and I'm grateful to have them even though mostly they're nothing special. I think an important part of learning any sort of hobby or craft is learning with cheap things so you understand limitations of the tools, and learn ways round, plus get a real understanding then if you upgrade of why better kit is actually better. You do use a lot of time in the process but I think it's good learning personally.
Re' the pen, I got it done and finished last night and you'd never know now. I think it had a void from a burr or something as you say as the tube was snug at both ends. I've always used thick CA glue and never had a problem except for this.
All part of the learning and challenge for when things go wrong but still to get a pleasing result. :)
Re' the pen, I got it done and finished last night and you'd never know now. I think it had a void from a burr or something as you say as the tube was snug at both ends. I've always used thick CA glue and never had a problem except for this.
All part of the learning and challenge for when things go wrong but still to get a pleasing result. :)
Penpal
Grand Master
Two things for bandsaws one simple test to see if the table is at right angles to the blade make a cut into the long side of a 6 by 2 inch piece of wood then turn it over and see if the cut runs free this way up (infallable).
The blade should run with the gullet nearest to the crown of the wheel.
Big help go to U Tube look at Bandsaw Alignment and be amazed as I was last night.
Peter.
The blade should run with the gullet nearest to the crown of the wheel.
Big help go to U Tube look at Bandsaw Alignment and be amazed as I was last night.
Peter.
Terry Q
Fellow
Jim here is another idea. Depending on what thickness veneer you require you can get excellent repeatable results with a well turned hand plane. No waste from a saw kerf. Surfaces that don't require sanding. No electricity wasted. No ear plugs required. I guarantee once you have this process under control it will put a smile on your face.