Poll: Let the forum decide. Kit quality.

[Walter]

I like this thread Brian. I don't like any of the pens they are all way too "bling" for me but that isn't the point I know.

Obviously in a photograph I cant feel the weight/ texture or inspect as closely as I would like but I have looked carefully at the photographs and cast my vote accordingly.

I shall be interested in the final outcome.

 

[Grump]

Thanks for those comments Walter you are one of the people who know how long I have been griping and moaning about kit quality.
I believe I have crossed swords with you and Eamonn on this subject in the past as well as others.
I respect the fact that we all have our own opinion and some don't like to hear others especially mine.

I am an open book, no secrets, WYSIWYG I call a spade a spade whether I am PC or not, sue me if you don't like it, simples init.

You will remember I have always stood firm by the slimline and its derivatives, when all around were getting snobby and the so called high end Majestic was the only pen worth showing.
Since then other kits have come along that knock spots off the Majestic, that is not opinion but a fact, born out by certain members of this forum, who have tested and given evidence if you like.
I am rambling but I have a lot to say to you.

I appreciate a picture does not give a clue to the feel, balance or any other sense than the eyes, those who have commented know these kits and can and will give their honest opinion of them.
Those who don't know the kits could look and think "ooh that looks good I want to try them" then see the price and rethink "it wants to be good for that sort of dosh".
They could either be fooled into the knowledge this is a good kit or be disappointed with their purchase either way they have looked at a picture of the kit.

When we make our purchase it is through our eyes and looking at catalogues, tinernet etc, I use Dan as an example who market researches through our forums to get opinions on what will sell, by asking what we will buy.
Initially he only has a picture to go on, I guess at his system being: Time to stock up. That looks nice, that's the price, How much mark up can I put on? How many can I sell in Time span. Ask the lads and decide from there.
All done from a picture to start.

We can all edit a picture or hide a fault in the picture and be fooled by them but we can't take our pictures and faults to a craft fair and sell them, if kit quality gets any worse that is exactly what we will be trying to do.
Set up a stall with a catalogue, that is what your pen will look like, how many are you ordering? I will post them to you when I have made them, how far will we get with that?

Neil is singularly the most successful craft fair person I know, I have seen that poor sod slog his guts out in all weathers, away from home putting up with conditions our army don't have to suffer just to flog a pen.
He is a natural people person and a great salesman, selling a story to you, the pen is a side product of your meeting him, what a guy, I love him.
When he tells me he likes a kit I put great store by his decision to like it and want to try it myself, on the occasions I have and will do again, I have and will be upset that it is more mass produced rubbish.
That man could sell kisses from a snowman in a desert and deserves my undying admiration for doing it.

The good bit: I have seen and held some absolutely stunning pens in my time, some beautiful results from here, by brilliant craftsmen and known I have a quality item in my hand, dropped a few too remember that Merv?

The bad bit: I have never been impressed with a kit quality yet. I have started to buy the threaded slimline kits as an experiment mainly because I have the taps and dies of the correct sizes and want to play init?
I do have the opinion at the moment they are a better kit than the existing slimline but I think I can safely say lets watch the quality of them deteriorate in time.

I thought to put this out to the forums as a bit of fun and spark some debate at the end, it seems that debate has already started so lets continue.

I know I sound like a moany old bastard but I do it for the benefit of future penturners who hopefully will get good quality kits and be proud of what they produce from them.

Have I said enuff yet? I need anothe rcuppa.

 

[PhillH]

I've not made any of them that's for sure.

Nor did I see any of the posts naming them, so voted for the one that I "think" looks the best in kit form.

I'd be interested to have them named afterwards though.

 

[Walter]

Thanks for those comments Walter you are one of the people who know how long I have been griping and moaning about kit quality.
I believe I have crossed swords with you and Eamonn on this subject in the past as well as others.
I respect the fact that we all have our own opinion and some don't like to hear others especially mine.

I am an open book, no secrets, WYSIWYG I call a spade a spade whether I am PC or not, sue me if you don't like it, simples init.

You will remember I have always stood firm by the slimline and its derivatives, when all around were getting snobby and the so called high end Majestic was the only pen worth showing.

I don't remember debating the quality of kits with you Brian, but I may well have, we have known each other for quite a while now through the various forums and debated many things. I am always happy to hear your opinion though even when I disagree with you.

I certainly don't disagree fundamentally with you as far as slimlines are concerned although the quality of those can be pretty variable depending upon whether they come from one of the decent manufacturers or one of the ones churning out cheap and nasty copies. As per the Ruskin quote in Neil's signature, "There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper. . . . . . "

Overall I agree that kit quality could be a lot better and the prices of some of the more fancy fountain pen kits are simply outrageous for what they are.

I have been watching the discussions etc. re: threaded slimlines but I am waiting to see a bit more feedback on them before I dive in.

If this thread does anything to improve the quality of kits then you are to be commended.

 

[Grump]

If this thread does anything to improve the quality of kits then you are to be commended.

I think we all know that is not gonna happen but I will keep on nagging.

 

[mattyts]

I think we all know that is not gonna happen but I will keep on nagging.

You ought to write them a letter,once a week every week...it worked for the guy in shawshank redemption

 

[Jim]

To be honest Brian, i don't mind any of these pens, i have only made a few of them over the years but they do look good when dressed in some beautiful Burr .. Or any material that one likes .. I chose number three, but only because of the stud in finial ..

The first Roman Harvest pen i made was very poorly made with the plastic seeming to be all over the pen, today this is a completely different pen now these have been changed ..

 

[Buckeye]

I think we all know that is not gonna happen but I will keep on nagging.

Yeah, but no, but yeah it's no good naggin us, you have to write to the manufacturer and now you can write in Chinese you are a shoe in

Peter

 

[Grump]

Me writing a letter to the manufacturers will have no impact whatsoever on a foreign company churning these things out by the million and you know that full well.
They would however listen to their best customer, I see the answer as being not to buy from the best customer and tell them why.
Instead of being shat on from the top, walk away from the crap and leave them holding their rubbish stock, that will impact the supplier and in turn the manufacturer.
This cannot be a lone quest, it would take all penturners on all forums to do this which we also know won't happen.
It certainly won't happen all the time people are convinced they have a good product to work with or don't know any different.

It looks like we have a clear winner already but let it run to conclusion which I think is Monday not Sunday cos I pressed the wrong button.
That being the case I wonder why anyone buys the other two??

 

[Buckeye]

...
That being the case I wonder why anyone buys the other two??

Not everyone agrees with your philosophy or has the same standards of "quality" there is absolutely nothing wrong with the other two. If people decide they are happy with the bling for buck they will buy what they like. Remember we don't only have a choice of black cars anymore.

Peter

 

[Grump]

i have only made a few of them over the years but they do look good when dressed in some beautiful Burr .. Or any material that one likes

A good point Jim and exactly what I was raising about pictures, silk purse and sow's ear come to mind, everything we do looks good.
That is what we do init? Make a pile of pooh look good.

Big but take into consideration the other factors of a quality pen forgetting the tube, the blank the finish which we know what to do with.
How about the fit, do you have to glue the hat or boot in to get it to stay in, or are you pressing so hard it splits the blank, don't argue the tube is wrong size I said to forget them, its about consistency of manufacture.
Plating's how many times do you enlarge a boot hole cos it has a burr or is blocked with metal from the process? Have you ever put one on a buffing wheel and watched it disappear in an instant?
How long does that last in the pocket with regular use? The refill why do we only get a sample refill that runs out with any proper use? The transmission how smooth is it or do you have to take it out and replace it after assembly?
Look at the clip that fell to bits from the packet, where is the quality control on that?

My biggest gripe is the plastic and metal threads. they do not work together well for long without being lubricated regularly, who wants to grease or oil their pen?


Yes we can all tell stories of a long lasting pen and boast about our good ones but can we say that about every pen with confidence?

I have a gold plated Mont Blanc I bought from the airport way back in 1974 ish. My first ever flight, to schiphol on a twin prop plane, like a roller coaster ride all the way I was so excited I loved it. My mate sat next to me crying were gonna crash.
I diverse. It was the most expensive pen I have ever bought to this day but I was earning more then than I have in the last 5 years.
That was then a touch of class in a pen and it still is to this day, when I had my business I put that pen through some stringent use taking it everywhere with me.
It still lives on my desk upstairs and still gets used more than any other pen in the house.
I took a pic the other day for another post on here and that pen was in it, I looked at the en afterwards and noticed it was kinda grubby with a ring around it from the hat being posted on it.
I took it to the rouge wheel and it now looks like a new pen again with no post ring, that is quality plating 30 microns I do believe.
I do know quality when I see it and I don't see in any kit available to me from our normal suppliers.

Another long post, have I wound anyone up yet?

 

[Grump]

Not everyone agrees with your philosophy or has the same standards of "quality" there is absolutely nothing wrong with the other two. If people decide they are happy with the bling for buck they will buy what they like. Remember we don't only have a choice of black cars anymore.

Peter

Point taken and agreed with yes we all have different ideas of what we want, I drive a van you drive a Bentley, I do it from choice once again I have an opinion to share.

I had a choice when I closed the company of which vehicle I wanted to keep, I no longer needed two, The car never earned a penny all it did was cost money.
I thought the only cars that will me money would be a taxi or a hearse and I want neither of those.
Not knowing what the future held or how long our savings would last I chose to keep the van, at least I have the chance of work with it, my choice.

Which brings me back to the point of it won't happen because, as you quite rightly point out, some people are happy with a budget pen and don't know any different.
I ain't arf enjoying this init?

 

[donwatson]

Using the criteria you set, I have voted.
I have never made any of these kits but would like someday to do that.

take care
Don W

 

[Grump]

Using the criteria you set, I have voted.
I have never made any of these kits but would like someday to do that.

take care
Don W

Hi Don This is just a bit of fun to wind up some debate, I am not really as opinionated as I come across.
There are many very experienced pen turners on these forums who all have opinions, I am trying to coax reaction on their views.
I'd like to get some of the less experienced to voice their opinions too, some would make great diplomat's or are they just ignoring me in hope I will go away?
I can see all sides of the argument and agree with most of them too but don't let on to the others init?
You will get a chance to turn all of these kits they really are not that hard, looking at your ebony one diameter pen I am sure you will make a good job of it.
This is not just about the kits pictured but all kits although these in particular are for comparison of similar so called high end kits.
They differ greatly in price but the quality does not increase with the price IMHO.

 

[Buckeye]

Point taken and agreed with yes we all have different ideas of what we want, I drive a van you drive a Bentley, I do it from choice once again I have an opinion to share.

I had a choice when I closed the company of which vehicle I wanted to keep, I no longer needed two, The car never earned a penny all it did was cost money.
I thought the only cars that will me money would be a taxi or a hearse and I want neither of those.
Not knowing what the future held or how long our savings would last I chose to keep the van, at least I have the chance of work with it, my choice.

Which brings me back to the point of it won't happen because, as you quite rightly point out, some people are happy with a budget pen and don't know any different.
I ain't arf enjoying this init?

I agree with the car/van analogy, kind of, I just can't find the Bentley I really do respect your right to view all the penkits as rubbish, even though you are quite wrong. I think you may have frightened off others from the debate as they are now disillusioned with pen making. I almost vowed not to turn another pen until I could afford only the best then I realised there were no kits that qualified so I may as well continue to turn out dross. I am hoping Dan can relieve the situation with some high end pens at around the £4 mark

Peter

 

[Buckeye]

Using the criteria you set, I have voted.
I have never made any of these kits but would like someday to do that.

take care
Don W

Your vote didn't show up, Don.

Peter

 

[Walter]

Have you ever put one on a buffing wheel and watched it disappear in an instant?
How long does that last in the pocket with regular use?

I have indeed. It was a gold "Panache" with a light scratch on the nib unit. I ended up buffing the whole thing and turning it into a "chrome" version. Just using a fine compound the plating was gone in a second. Never made that mistake again

My biggest gripe is the plastic and metal threads. they do not work together well for long without being lubricated regularly, who wants to grease or oil their pen?

I agree with that too. S**te design. But just in case I seem to be agreeing with you too much, whilst I think the quality of most kits could be improved I don't think they are all as bad as you make out. Some of the titanium or rhodium plated kits seem to last reasonably well, although I agree they are never going to match the 30 micron plating on your Mont Blanc. But then if you want Mont Blanc quality you are going to have to pay Mont Blanc prices and since most people seem to want to import the cheapest kits they can find and fool themselves that they are the same quality as the brand names that isn't going to happen.

 

[Grump]

I think you may have frightened off others from the debate as they are now disillusioned with pen making.

That is certainly not my intention, I want to make their pen making a more pleasant experience with a product they can be assured they can give their customer a warranty on.
In order to do so it is important to get their opinions and views, this is a debate to air discontent or credit of products, not a row among members.
You just never know, the managing director of www.the-best-plating_company-in-the-world.com might just be a woodturner and happen across this thread and think to himself "I'll setup a British top quality pen kit factory".
Fat chance I know but still a chance, Walter might just be right it could be this thread that makes the difference.

Examples:
A customer buy's your pen, after four days of normal use the wood splits, they bring it back it's your problem but you accept it with apologies that you have cocked up.
A customer buy's your pen, after four days of normal use the transmission has seized up, still your problem, now you accept it back fuming that the supplier has sold you a dodgy kit and you will be having words with him.
Of all the good reliable sources we have have and use they can only supply what we have asked for, it's not their fault your transmission has broke.
The Doc has been a star and sourced some threaded kits for us as a one off, which I am very grateful for and will not redress him if my mandrel is bent when open the box (it isn't I just checked)
But if he was to set himself up as a regular supplier and it happened often then he is my direct point of contact to the manufacturer and has to inform them of the problem.
Or does he let the matter slide and simply send another one out as they are so cheap there is no problem, now the manufacturer is unaware of any issue and continues to churn them out.

I know I keep harping on about my old factory but I do miss the best days of my life,
We were a plastics fabrication and manufacturing firm, small fry to the big boys but we had our own patented products among other things.
In order to win some of the contracts we tendered for we had guarantee our products, often for silly things ( a fifty year guarantee, will it stand up to nuclear attack etc? Yes mate I won't be around to claim against init).

My point being I wanted to know if there was a fault with any of my products, I would relish a complaint, visit sites and confer with installers, see how /where they are storing them I would know what and how each contractor was doing with my produce.
On the rare occasion something was wrong with any of my products, I would find the fault and correct it immediately to the point of recalling the entire batch, stopping production and returning the raw materials demanding a refund and a no repeat of business until corrected.
Am I wrong to think that is how it should work and to expect other to do the same????

 

[Grump]

Some of the titanium or rhodium plated kits seem to last reasonably well, although I agree they are never going to match the 30 micron plating on your Mont Blanc. But then if you want Mont Blanc quality you are going to have to pay Mont Blanc prices

Yet more valid points from Walter and I have to agree but to counter that, if those titanium or rhodium plated kits seem to last reasonably well, is it unreasonable to expect all plating's to do so?

If you want Mont Blanc quality you are going to have to pay Mont Blanc prices, While that I suppose has to be correct, I feel justified to expect a rise in quality with the increase in price, that said I take kit 3 from the equation.
There is a marked improvement in quality with those since the supplier took it upon himself to do something about it.

 

[Buckeye]

...
My point being I wanted to know if there was a fault with any of my products, I would relish a complaint, visit sites and confer with installers, see how /where they are storing them I would know what and how each contractor was doing with my produce.
On the rare occasion something was wrong with any of my products, I would find the fault and correct it immediately to the point of recalling the entire batch, stopping production and returning the raw materials demanding a refund and a no repeat of business until corrected.
Am I wrong to think that is how it should work and to expect other to do the same????

I don't think you are wrong, that is how it works, as a producer you have to stand by your products. It doesn't matter to your customers what redress you have against your suppliers that's between you and them. I remember buying an Epson Printer that gave prints with a 100 year life, 3 months in and prints were fading. I contacted the clients I had printed for and told them to get in touch if they faded and I would reprint on photographic paper. Epson refunded my many hundreds of pounds and never bothered to collect the printer. I never used inkjet again for customers even though many do and seem to have excellent results, it's not worth the potential problems.

Peter