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I always new it was the right thing to do!
- Thread starter Maurice
- Start date
The point being mist here is in the video they are using a pillar drill the drill is spinning not the wood so the vibration is reversed to the chuck on a lathe increasing the chance of the Mt coming a drift also what happened proves this is not a good and safe practice
I at one time always drilled my blanks on a pillar drill and not once did the quill come lose in all the years of drilling now I drill on the lathe and it comes loose quite often strange
When you want to remove the chuck from thee lathe it pops out quite easy try removing one from a pillar drill not so easy
I at one time always drilled my blanks on a pillar drill and not once did the quill come lose in all the years of drilling now I drill on the lathe and it comes loose quite often strange
When you want to remove the chuck from thee lathe it pops out quite easy try removing one from a pillar drill not so easy
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2013
- Posts
- 9,505
- First Name
- Terry
A bit of sales pitch in that video Maurice. The swarf coming off was dust and you cannot always guarantee that plus that drill would probably be spinning around 750rpm !!!
Jim
Grand Master
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2011
- Posts
- 15,617
Maurice i also use Colt Drills, but never run the speed faster than 800rpm, i also run the drill straight through the blank in one pass. It is only Corian that i the drill in quarters pulling out the drill as i have cracked or run off center when this material warms up .. 
Stay safe out there guys ... The majority of the time we are out there by ourselves .. :pray:
Stay safe out there guys ... The majority of the time we are out there by ourselves .. :pray:
You say it is all part of the excitement Brian ???? That is a strange statement to make especially if somebody ended up with a serious injury!!!!
I am known for making strange statements but in no way did I imply or wish any serious injury to anyone with the odd black eye and cut finger
Nor did I condone the grabbing of a chuck which was what sparked my strange statement.
That's the same type of drill I use and never had any problems with the drilling on lathe or pillar drill at any speed.
I have however had many things flying around my shed and many have made contact with my person, all part of the fun of this wonderful hobby we pursue.
I have noticed on a few occasions (very few) when withdrawing the tailstock with Jacobs chuck the tailstock has moved but the drill has not retracted with it.
Upon noticing this I have a choice of advancing the tailstock or switching off the machine.
I had always put it down to me not putting the taper in correctly or firm enough so I can understand how Maurice reached this dilemma init?
Penpal
Grand Master
Confirming my concern and relief its over there are many safe practices will avoid it in future.
Peter.
Peter.
Walter
Fellow
Believing the bollocks that manufacturers spout at you is almost as daft as drilling at 1500 rpm.
Maurice
Full Member
Ok enough is enough. I am not going to sit by and be abused be people who have no idea who I am or what I have done. I have been turning continuously for over twenty years since I retired.
I have turned (and sold) more bowls, platters, boxes, goblets, pens candlesticks hollow forms etc., than I care to remember and the reason for my post was to show that anybody can make a mistake and to confirm the need for safety gear. What I did not expect was such a barrage of ill-informed rubbish and abuse.
So let’s start at the beginning regarding the drill speed. The Colt drill has been manufactured to be used with speeds between 1000 and 3000 rpm. Below that speed the drill does not operate to its full potential. It is known for its ability to cut fast with no break-out even in man-made acrylics. In both pillar drills and on the lathe. My 1500 rpms was well within the advised speed range.
If you want to use £1.50 junk drills for your turning then go ahead and drill at low speeds and continuously clean the flutes. I live in the 21st century and use the best available.
Drill manufacturers spend millions of pounds producing new products and would not put the drill speeds on the rear of their drill packaging unless they are confident of the drills ability. I would rather take their word than someone who thinks they know it all. In addition, for those of you with the Stiles & Bates catalogue for 2014, take a look at page 45 where it is part of the sales description.
This morning I spoke to David Bates, who for those who do not know him, is a Registered Professional Turner on the Worshipful Company of Turners Register, and runs turning courses in Kent. He confirmed all I have just said. I will not repeat his views on some people on internet forums.
I also discussed the problem of the drill chuck pulling out of the tail stock. He has also had this problem particularly when a sawtooth bit jammed. He, like me, and Neil, who was also unnecessarily castigated, holds the chuck in the tail stock, particularly when withdrawing the drill out of the blank. It is necessary to apply a little pressure to remove the swarf from inside the blank and therefore it is not advisable to switch the lathe off before withdrawing the drill. For those of you who do not know, the practice of holding a drill in a chuck in your hand across the tool rest when starting hollow forms or drilling into fruit etc. is a common and normal practice. In fact Craft supplies of the USA used to sell a drill with a small handle attached for this very purpose.
I normally drill straight through a blank but on this occasion the travel of the tail stock was just not quite sufficient, hence the need to withdraw the drill. I was not paying sufficient attention and did not have my hand on the drill chuck; therefore the chuck flying out of the tail stock was my fault.
Please stand up all those who have never made a mistake, at least I am willing to admit mine if to do so would help and save those on this forum who are less experienced.
Forums are supposed to be places where likeminded people exchange views (sometime quite forcefully) but vitriolic abuse is not, and can never be, acceptable.
Jim if you think I have expressed myself too forcefully then I will to leave the forum.
I have turned (and sold) more bowls, platters, boxes, goblets, pens candlesticks hollow forms etc., than I care to remember and the reason for my post was to show that anybody can make a mistake and to confirm the need for safety gear. What I did not expect was such a barrage of ill-informed rubbish and abuse.
So let’s start at the beginning regarding the drill speed. The Colt drill has been manufactured to be used with speeds between 1000 and 3000 rpm. Below that speed the drill does not operate to its full potential. It is known for its ability to cut fast with no break-out even in man-made acrylics. In both pillar drills and on the lathe. My 1500 rpms was well within the advised speed range.
If you want to use £1.50 junk drills for your turning then go ahead and drill at low speeds and continuously clean the flutes. I live in the 21st century and use the best available.
Drill manufacturers spend millions of pounds producing new products and would not put the drill speeds on the rear of their drill packaging unless they are confident of the drills ability. I would rather take their word than someone who thinks they know it all. In addition, for those of you with the Stiles & Bates catalogue for 2014, take a look at page 45 where it is part of the sales description.
This morning I spoke to David Bates, who for those who do not know him, is a Registered Professional Turner on the Worshipful Company of Turners Register, and runs turning courses in Kent. He confirmed all I have just said. I will not repeat his views on some people on internet forums.
I also discussed the problem of the drill chuck pulling out of the tail stock. He has also had this problem particularly when a sawtooth bit jammed. He, like me, and Neil, who was also unnecessarily castigated, holds the chuck in the tail stock, particularly when withdrawing the drill out of the blank. It is necessary to apply a little pressure to remove the swarf from inside the blank and therefore it is not advisable to switch the lathe off before withdrawing the drill. For those of you who do not know, the practice of holding a drill in a chuck in your hand across the tool rest when starting hollow forms or drilling into fruit etc. is a common and normal practice. In fact Craft supplies of the USA used to sell a drill with a small handle attached for this very purpose.
I normally drill straight through a blank but on this occasion the travel of the tail stock was just not quite sufficient, hence the need to withdraw the drill. I was not paying sufficient attention and did not have my hand on the drill chuck; therefore the chuck flying out of the tail stock was my fault.
Please stand up all those who have never made a mistake, at least I am willing to admit mine if to do so would help and save those on this forum who are less experienced.
Forums are supposed to be places where likeminded people exchange views (sometime quite forcefully) but vitriolic abuse is not, and can never be, acceptable.
Jim if you think I have expressed myself too forcefully then I will to leave the forum.
Walter
Fellow
I am sorry if anything I have said has offended you.
If you choose to continue to believe that drilling acrylic at 1500 rpm is safe and effective despite your experience then that is up to you. I shall continue to drill at speeds I consider to be sensible. My own 30 years experience has taught me not to believe everything manufacturers tell me.
Whilst I have every respect for David Bates I cannot consider his views to be entirely unbiased since, as proprietor of Stiles and Bates, he sells Colt Pen Drills so has a vested interest in promoting them.
The fact that holding a drill chuck by hand is common practice does not make it good or safe practice.
If you choose to continue to believe that drilling acrylic at 1500 rpm is safe and effective despite your experience then that is up to you. I shall continue to drill at speeds I consider to be sensible. My own 30 years experience has taught me not to believe everything manufacturers tell me.
Whilst I have every respect for David Bates I cannot consider his views to be entirely unbiased since, as proprietor of Stiles and Bates, he sells Colt Pen Drills so has a vested interest in promoting them.
The fact that holding a drill chuck by hand is common practice does not make it good or safe practice.
loftyhermes
Full Member
The fact that the chuck could come out of the lathes tapers is the reason I had mine threaded to screw onto the headstock.
Funnily enough I've never though the holding of the chuck to be a safety issue, I always hold on to mine when withdrawing a drill bit otherwise it does have a tendency for the taper to come out of the sleeve.
I don't consider holding the chuck in the tail stock anymore dangerous than holding the chuck of my cordless drill when I'm tightening & un-tightening bits, it's the same thing
I don't consider holding the chuck in the tail stock anymore dangerous than holding the chuck of my cordless drill when I'm tightening & un-tightening bits, it's the same thing
I haven't drilled much on the lathe, I also prefer a pillar drill to drill my pen blanks with, but & this is the important bit - that is MY preference.
I have drilled a pilot hole on the lathe for hollow forms / vases etc and up until this week never had a problem, then lo & behold, whilst drilling a pilot hole for the Roly Munroe in a wet piece of end grain, the Jacobs chuck in the tailstock wasn't withdrawing as it should.
Maurice I was mindful of what had happened to you and moved out of the way whilst the lathe was switched off. The Jacobs chuck was pulled out, with the lathe stationary, no problem, had this been an acrylic blank tho then I don't think that would have been the case.
This has to be one of the friendliest forums out there Maurice.
I have read what has been written in this thread and not noticed any vitriolic abuse.
I have read about a number of other people's experiences and how they deal with things but at no point can I see that anyone has abused you specifically.
Just because one person says it is so, does not make it right and we all go about doing things in our own way.
I hope you don't leave the forum Maurice as you have the right to your opinion, just the same as everyone else.
I have drilled a pilot hole on the lathe for hollow forms / vases etc and up until this week never had a problem, then lo & behold, whilst drilling a pilot hole for the Roly Munroe in a wet piece of end grain, the Jacobs chuck in the tailstock wasn't withdrawing as it should.
Maurice I was mindful of what had happened to you and moved out of the way whilst the lathe was switched off. The Jacobs chuck was pulled out, with the lathe stationary, no problem, had this been an acrylic blank tho then I don't think that would have been the case.
This has to be one of the friendliest forums out there Maurice.
I have read what has been written in this thread and not noticed any vitriolic abuse.
I have read about a number of other people's experiences and how they deal with things but at no point can I see that anyone has abused you specifically.
Just because one person says it is so, does not make it right and we all go about doing things in our own way.
I hope you don't leave the forum Maurice as you have the right to your opinion, just the same as everyone else.
Hmmm, interesting this one.
I appreciated the original post re safety gear etc.
Drilling speeds........... I have (very quickly) googled drilling speed for acrylic, nearly everything I find has speeds below 1000 rpm, considerably below. Has anyone actually worked out what the correct SFM should be for the bit size in question ?
Good read here for anyone who cares http://www.tapplastics.com/uploads/pdf/Tech Data-Drilling.pdf
As for colt drills are they specifically ground for acrylic or just for "general" drilling ? Genuine question asked because I don't know.
As for being a member of whatever, I personally have a number of "professional" accreditation's, NOT ONE of them proves I am any good at my job, they only prove I paid someone for a membership.
Independent corroboration is valid to me, not stats from the Manufacturer or a reseller.
Ferrari say some of their cars will do 180 MPH +, they don't say, "don't do it on a public road" though do they ?
Just because something "can" do it, doesn't mean you should do it.
I appreciated the original post re safety gear etc.
Drilling speeds........... I have (very quickly) googled drilling speed for acrylic, nearly everything I find has speeds below 1000 rpm, considerably below. Has anyone actually worked out what the correct SFM should be for the bit size in question ?
Good read here for anyone who cares http://www.tapplastics.com/uploads/pdf/Tech Data-Drilling.pdf
As for colt drills are they specifically ground for acrylic or just for "general" drilling ? Genuine question asked because I don't know.
As for being a member of whatever, I personally have a number of "professional" accreditation's, NOT ONE of them proves I am any good at my job, they only prove I paid someone for a membership.
Independent corroboration is valid to me, not stats from the Manufacturer or a reseller.
Ferrari say some of their cars will do 180 MPH +, they don't say, "don't do it on a public road" though do they ?
Just because something "can" do it, doesn't mean you should do it.
Walter
Fellow
I don't consider holding the chuck in the tail stock anymore dangerous than holding the chuck of my cordless drill when I'm tightening & un-tightening bits, it's the same thing
Not quite Doug. When you let go of the trigger the cordless drill stops almost immediately and if there is a problem you will do so instinctively. If the bit jams in the work when you are holding the chuck in the tailstock the chuck will start to revolve and will have shredded your palm before you can get to the stop button.
I seemed to remember from the video posted earlier in this thread that the Colt drill was designed specifically for drilling end grain wood, I'll re-watch & check.
Neil
Fellow
Walter,
If so how do you use a draw bar with a telescopic quill?
One of the most dangerous things about lathe design is the fixed position of the on off switch, towards the headstock. I have a 1416 lathe amongst others and the benefit of having a switch which is movable and respite able via a magnet is well worth it. If you have a problem drilling on the lathe and are turning the quill, with other lathes if all goes wrong you have to reach across the revolving work and drill set up to get to the switch.
This method was taught to me by two professional turners for whom I have the greatest respect and whilst it inevitably carries a degree of risk it is less than that of a drill chuck being pulled free from the tail stock and thrown around the workshop.when you steady a chuck during drilling and hold it as if you were starting an old diesel, ie, thumb over the top, you can move your hand away. If you really thought I would grasp the chuck with a full hand grip, sorry but that was not stated nor implied.
Brian,
It is not sheer stupidity, it is actually good sense. If you cannot use a drawbar through product design, or hold the chuck over the top with your hand, how do you ensure the chuck stays in the taper? ESP? No thanks. Regardless of whether you use long drills and drill all the way through in one go, you will still have to withdraw the drill.
I don't see what on a smooth chuck there is to shredded my Palm Walter, not that I hold the chuck in my palm it is held between my thumb & index finger, so the worse I would get is a rubbed burn which I have never suffered from the lathe as it's a natural reaction to let go.
I would also add if you use a 36v cordless drill it's damned easy to get such a burn when tightening up a chuck, but you only do it once.
Neil
Fellow
I thought a colt was wot I got with my cowboy outfit yehaaaaaaaaaa
So you've got a 7mm tucked in that waistcoat holster?
Maurice,
I understand where you are coming from. However, after nearly 40 years of experience in turning and drilling all type of materials. I can't help but wonder if the millions spent on drilling research at high speeds is really focused on the home market.
What you gain from drilling at high speeds on the home workshop is only seconds, that should really not count. In manufacturing then yes, that will count. This is where the drill manufacturers make there money.
But if you asked the drill manufacturers to spec one to drill plastics, they you would get a different design, and a hefty cost to match.
While I fully understand you problems, but you must always understand that even after 20 years of experience you can learn something from the fact that drilling plastics at high speed is frowned upon from many on this forum. If you tot up their experience then that would spread over 300 years ( Brian's alone does half that)
Anyway. I don't believe anyone was getting at you personally ( even Walter can come across a bit strong, but that's Walter) just the surprised that someone was drilling plastics at such high speeds.
I too have a colt, but I don't drill at high speeds on plastics, that's why my comment was one of surprise.
If you feel I have come across incorrectly then please feel free to pm me and I will discuss outside this forum.
I now believe that there is a misunderstanding from allot of craftsman that drilling and turning speeds are miss understood and it doesn't matter how modern you are, it's a fact, materials will only drill at the speeds they want to be drilled at and not what they are told to be drilled at..
I understand where you are coming from. However, after nearly 40 years of experience in turning and drilling all type of materials. I can't help but wonder if the millions spent on drilling research at high speeds is really focused on the home market.
What you gain from drilling at high speeds on the home workshop is only seconds, that should really not count. In manufacturing then yes, that will count. This is where the drill manufacturers make there money.
But if you asked the drill manufacturers to spec one to drill plastics, they you would get a different design, and a hefty cost to match.
While I fully understand you problems, but you must always understand that even after 20 years of experience you can learn something from the fact that drilling plastics at high speed is frowned upon from many on this forum. If you tot up their experience then that would spread over 300 years ( Brian's alone does half that)
Anyway. I don't believe anyone was getting at you personally ( even Walter can come across a bit strong, but that's Walter) just the surprised that someone was drilling plastics at such high speeds.
I too have a colt, but I don't drill at high speeds on plastics, that's why my comment was one of surprise.
If you feel I have come across incorrectly then please feel free to pm me and I will discuss outside this forum.
I now believe that there is a misunderstanding from allot of craftsman that drilling and turning speeds are miss understood and it doesn't matter how modern you are, it's a fact, materials will only drill at the speeds they want to be drilled at and not what they are told to be drilled at..